Genealogy Chat

Does look promising I will suggest she gets those certs,

Thank again Argyll Gran

A son ??

GWATKIN, WILLIAM GEORGE mms PRICE
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in PRESTEIGN Volume 11B Page 153

I don't see him in 1871, but don't see his death, either.

A maybe for a Gwatkin / Price marriage, to go with the Gwatkin / Morgan one in 1871 ??

Marriages Sep 1864 (>99%)
GWATKIN George Presteigne 11b 233
PRICE Catharine Presteigne 11B 233


??

Deaths Dec 1867 (>99%)
Gwatkin George 27 Hereford 6a 321

Possibly Sarah's death, which would mean Lewis married (or at least got together with) Catherine between 1868 - or 1861 at earliest - and 1871:

MORGAN, SARAH 36
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 21

Catherine was Lewis's second wife.

In 1861 he's with wife Sarah:


Lewis Morgan
in the 1861 Wales Census
Name: Lewis Morgan
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Morgan
Gender: Male
Where born: Llanwenarth, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Llantillio Crossenny
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Monmouth
Sub-registration district: Dingestow
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Household schedule number: 38
Neighbors:
Piece: 3986
Folio: 38
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Lewis Morgan 27
Sarah Morgan 30
Sarah A Morgan 7
Matilda Morgan 4
William M Philips 21 - servant
Ann Higgs 17 - servant


MORGAN, MATILDA mms DAVIS
GRO Reference: 1856 S Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 29

MORGAN, SARAH mms DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 11A Page 163


Marriages Jun 1853 (>99%)
Davies Sarah Monmouth 11a 59
Morgan Lewis Monmouth 11a 59

UPDATE

My friend has received the Birth Cert for Male child born 1873, and it confirms his parents were Lewis Morgan farmer and Catherine Morgan formely Price.

The place of birth was LLantillo Crosseny and most important the Date of birth 23rd of April 1873 matches the same date on the 1939 register which showed him as John Morgan. Thank you for the suggestion of ordering this record as she had exhausted other options. The Birth was registered by mother the day after the birth, perhaps the baby was poorly and not expected to live so no name chosen at that time.

Argyll Gran posted 1871 Wales census showing Lewis and wife Catherine living with them Edwin a nephew.

*I would still if possible like help finding a marriage between Catherine Price and Lewis Morgan.

Some further information supplied, Lewis was married before to Sara Davies they had 2 daughters Matilda and Sarah Ann. On Dec 26 1870 Matilda died aged 15 followed on the 30th Dec by death of Sarah Ann aged 17.This was taken from a newspaper notice,and says daughters of Lewis Morgan at Upper Trewew Llantillio Crossney, No mention of a mother.

Newspaper Notice 14th May 1871 same address
Birth at Trerew Farm May 14th 1871 the wife of Mr Lewis Morgan a son. GRO shows a birth same dist of a Joshua Lewis Morgan mother Price, I think this may be the son living with John Davies wife Mary Davies Nee Morgan as posted by Argyll gran 1881 again name changed around.

1881 Lewis Morgan and Catherine have 2 more children William Henry age 5 and Elizabeth Ann 2.


Thank for help getting this far.

John (Herbert's uncle) in 1851, with brother Lewis.

Lewis's age matches 1881 census posted earlier:


John Morgan
in the 1851 Wales Census
Name: John Morgan
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Son
Father's name: Lewis Morgan
Mother's name: Mary Morgan
Gender: Male
Where born: Llanwenarth, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Grosmont
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Hereford City
ED, institution, or vessel: 9b
Piece: 1978
Folio: 589
Page Number: 9
Household schedule number: 34
Household Members:
Name Age
Lewis Morgan 65
Mary Morgan 60
Henry Morgan 29
Ann Morgan 26
John Morgan 24
Mary Morgan 22
Michael Morgan 20
Lewis Morgan 17
Robert Ellis 18

For our reference:

Herbert John Morgan
in the 1881 Wales Census
Name: Herbert John Morgan
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Llantillo Crosseny, Monmouth, Wales
Civil Parish: Skenfrith
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: Firs Farm
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Monmouth
Sub registration district: Dingestow
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors:
Piece: 5226
Folio: 101
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
John Morgan 53 - born Llanwenith
Ann Morgan 50
Lewis Johnston Morgan 24 - son
Ada Morgan 14 - daughter
Eleanor Morgan 12 - daughter
Emily Matilda Morgan 10 - daughter
Herbert John Morgan 7
John Williams 17 - servant


Looks very possible, Maureen.
Lewis Morgan (Catherine's husband) was also born in Llanwenarth.

Perhaps John Henry didn't like the name Herbert.

But speculation's all very well.
It'll be interesting to know what the 1873 birth cert says - though it won't have any first names on it.

I have some more information regarding my post, though more confusion.

The 1939 record of John Morgan and wife Rosa 76 Osborne Rd Pontypool is correct, my friends elderly father in law is their grandson, he spent time with them as a child. The 1891, 1901 and 1911 census posted are correct,

1901 shows son Herbert John b 1899 he is father of her father in law. Daughter Ada Gertrude appears in 1911 census with an aunt Edith Laura Harris nee Beale, both Edith and Rosa Beale are in earlier census father Joseph Beale in Caeleon.

The marriage cert for the couple she has if its correct throws up problems. Listed as married in The Regsier Office, Register Dist of Cardiff in county of Cardiff and Glamorgan. 23rd June 1896.

John HENRY Morgan batchelor age 23 living at Frasers Yard Docks a Carter father Lewis a labourer.
Rosa Beale spinster age 21 same address no occupation father Joseph labourer

Cert. was signed by him as John HENRY the witness Annie Kean and Elizabeth May.

The problem we find is that when John* Morgan died in 1951 in Abergavenny Hospital death reg VOL 08C Page 57 JQ of 1950 he is now called Herbert John.

The death notice from Newspaper and death cert which has address and informant daughter named correct, both show his name as Herbert John Morgan age 78 Coal Merchant Haulier. The death notice says wife Mrs J Morgan which suggests he was known as John.

A posting showing family of Lewis Morgan and wife Catherine with 2 children, mm Price in 1881 no Herbert or John as someone says, although in 1881 there is a Herbert John Morgan shown aged 7 yrs born Llantillio Crosseny living as a nephew of John Morgan, in Skenfirth Monmouth, and family.

I have posted this as an update, she has searched for a number of years for his birth to progress with this side of the family, I will as suggested order the Male Cert for 1873. There is another Herbert Morgan 1873 birth the record she obtained was William Morgan and Ellen Whittingham parents reg Pontypool Garndiffath Trevihin so not the right one.

If any one can come up with any more suggestion, meanwhile I will order the cert.

Thank you for your help

A word of caution. The only things that is likely to be accurate on a DC are the date & place of death along with the informant name & residence. Everything else is to the best of the informants knowledge.

My maternal grandfather’s death was reg as Harry by my aunt. His birth was registered as Henry. She didn’t know that.
My paternal grandmothers dob as recorded on the DC is one year out!

Even the dob on the 1939 Register can be slightly or wildly out especially if there’s a large age gap between a married couple. Older people, or even the parents with a number of children, can forget the day of birth.

Thank you

I will suggest she purchases the record, at least the date of birth may confirm its the same man from 1939 Register Date,she also has death cert maybe that will show a date of birth also I will ask for a copy.

MORGAN, - 0
GRO Reference: 1873 M Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 26

That must be a different child.

GRO list the quarters by the end month, therefore it’s desth would have been reg Jan, Feb or Mar.

The birth was registered Apr, May or Jun.

Even if the there was a delay in reg the birth, they would have been expected to register it at the same time as the death. I suppose it’s possible the birth could have slipped through the net particularly as it wasn’t legally required. There’s only one way to be sure- order the pdf certificates :-D

Thank you,

Just looked at GRO site for ord cert when I checked out deaths. There is a death for Morgan male M Q 1873 Monmouth age 0 yrs Vol 11a page 26 maybe this is the record for the male.

Yes, it would have a blank for first name - probably, as DetEcTive says, because they hadn't made up their minds about a name.

But it would let you know if the parents were the correct Morgan/Price couple.

And as I said, the reg district, year, and quarter are all correct for John Henry's DOB as listed in 1939..

Thanks for clearing that up, I wonder if the record was obtained would it have a blank first name and if so why would this be.

Did you mean this? Its from the GRO site.

MORGAN, - mms PRICE
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 35

ArgyllGran suggested it might be for John Henry Morgan if they hadn't made up their minds for a name.

This is Ancestry's transcription - as the mmn isn't on the indicies they hold, it hasn't been transcribed.

Male Morgan
Registration Year: 1873
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 35

Thank you for all the postings, iam still waiting for details from the marriage cert.

Argyll Gran you mention a birth reg Gro ref Vol 11A Page 35 JQ 1973 mms Price is this for a John Henry Morgan ? I have looked at the Reg on Ancestry and cant locate the record for the name.

Maybe Catharine in 1841 ??


Catharine Price
in the 1841 Wales Census
Name: Catharine Price
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Gender: Female
Where born: Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Grosmont
Hundred: Skenfreth (Upper Division)
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Kentchurch
Neighbors:
Piece: 748
Book: 5
Folio: 6
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
William Price 30
Susan Price 30
James Price 13
Susan Price 12
Ann Price 10
Diannah Price 8
William Price 6
Bedrigo Price 4
Catharine Price 1


And 1851:

Kate Price
in the 1851 Wales Census
Name: Kate Price
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: William Price
Mother's name: Susannah Price
Gender: Female
Where born: Grosmont, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Grosmont
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Hereford City
ED, institution, or vessel: 9b
Piece: 1978
Folio: 589
Page Number: 8
Household schedule number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
William Price 47
Susannah Price 44
Ann Jonson 82
James Price 23
William Price 15
Abwnego Price 13
Kate Price 10
Mary Price 7
George Price 5
Eward Skyrme 20
Ann Price 20

The 1873 birth may not have been registered - there were no penalties until 1875

Lewis and Mary's christenings:


Lewis Morgan
England Births and Christenings
Name Lewis Morgan
Gender Male
Christening Date 10 Jun 1833
Christening Date (Original) 10 JUN 1833
Christening Place LLANWENARTH,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND
Father's Name Lewis Morgan
Mother's Name Mary



Mary Morgan
England Births and Christenings
Name Mary Morgan
Gender Female
Christening Date 15 Jan 1829
Christening Date (Original) 15 JAN 1829
Christening Place LLANWENARTH,MONMOUTH,ENGLAND
Father's Name Lewis Morgan
Mother's Name Mary