Genealogy Chat

Hull Daily Mail - Monday 10 October 1887

SUDDEN DEATH OF A HULL BUTCHER
Inquest This Afternoon

An inquest into the circumstances attending the death of Edward Gill, butcher, 37 years of age and who resided at No 4 Ebenezer Place, Commerce Lane, Edgar Street took place this afternoon in the Vauxhall Tavern, Hessle Road....
Mrs Gill deposed that her husband was in the habit of drinking hard but last week drank very heavy...

...A verdict the the deceased died from apoplexy induced by intemperate habits was returned by the jury.

I just had a lovely message from Sheila acknowledging the help she's had.

She also added the following:

"when Emma married Walter her marriage certificate said her father was James, deceased and his occupation was manure merchant "

I have some sedation at the dental hospital today, so I don't have full concentration. I just spotted this, don't know if it's connected, but I'll put it up now so I can take a better look tomorrow:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
8, Portland Terrace, Southcoates, Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

James Spencer Head Widower Male 61 1820 Manure Maker (19-1) Northamptonshire,
Emily Spencer Daughter Single Female 15 1866 - Winterton, Lincolnshire, England
--------------------------------------

Hull and Eastern Counties Herald - Thursday 07 November 1867

A man named James Spencer, manure merchant, carrying on business in Drypool was charged with uttering and disposing of a bill of exchange for £16 10s purported to be signed band accepted by Mr George Ryder, when he well knew that it had not been accepted....

That Emily, daughter of James in the 1881 posted above by AustinQ, was born in Winterton, Lincolnshire. Not Hull.

Going back to your opening post, Sheila -
you said Emma's marriage cert said she was born in Hull.

What's the exact wording on the marriage cert, please?

As Kathleen said, marriage certs don't usually have place of birth on them.

Can anyone make out the occupation of the James Spencer in the 1861 census I posted on 4th July @ 12:07 ?

Argyll Gran, it looks like manure merchant to me?

Definitely could be manure merchant, and it fits with the 1881 census above. He's the only James Spencer manure merchant I could find, so I'd be pretty certain that it's the correct one (I don't think it's an occupation you'd make up to impress the inlaws!). This is the FMP version of that 1861:

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
10, Pemberton Street, Sutton, Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

James Spencer Head Married Male 41 1820 ...Merchant Gleaston, Northamptonshire, England
Ellen Spencer Wife Married Female 31 1830 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
William Spencer Son - Male 14 1847 - Hull, Yorkshire, England
Thomas Spencer Son - Male 12 1849 Scholar Hull, Yorkshire, England
John H Spencer Son - Male 10 1851 Scholar Hull, Yorkshire, England
Sarah A Spencer Daughter - Female 8 1853 Scholar Hull, Yorkshire, England
James Spencer Son - Male 6 1855 Scholar Hull, Yorkshire, England
Samuel Spencer Son - Male 4 1857 Scholar Hull, Yorkshire, England
Alfred Spencer Son - Male 0 1861 - Hull, Yorkshire, England
----------------------------------------

There are several news articles relating to James, manure merchant around the Hull area- mainly petty offences, including failing to send his children to school.

This is a possible death for James, which ties in with him being deceased on Emma's marriage in 1891.

First name(s) JAMES
Last name SPENCER
Gender Male
Birth year 1819
Age 70
Death quarter 3
Death year 1889
District SCULCOATES
County Yorkshire
Volume 9D Page 108
-----------------------------------------------------

So, we just need to do a little sorting now re his wife/ wives. I'm at work in a bit but will try and look later.

Kingston upon Hull War Memorial 1914 - 1918
The story of Hull in World War One

ROSE
First Name ERNEST
STRICKLAND STREET, HULL, EAST YORKSHIRE, UK, HU3 4AQ
BORN HULL 1898. SON OF WALTER & EMMA ROSE.
Category:STRICKLAND STREET


ROSE
BORN HULL 1896. SON OF WALTER & EMMA ROSE ABOVE.
BROTHER ERNEST KIA 23/7/16.
Address STRICKLAND STREET, HULL, EAST YORKSHIRE, UK, HU3 4AQ
First Name WILLIAM
House Number 2
Sub Address STEPHENS TERRACE
Regiment RNR HMT 'PERSIAN EMPIRE'
Military No. 1386
Rank TRIMMER
Date Died 14/01/1915
Place Died SEA
Age 19

(just to add above, from google. Looks to go with 1911 posted)

Chris :)

(perhaps a Son below)

Yorkshire Death indexes for the years: 1887

GILL Edward Harper 37 Myton Hull MYT/117/284


Yorkshire Death indexes for the years: 1889

GILL Edward 2 Myton Hull MYT/121/475


Yorkshire Birth indexes for the years: 1887

GILL Edward Myton Hull MYT/159/99


http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

edits (apologies, just seen Newspaper items posted)

Off out the door- but just in case - could this be James' first marriage:

First name(s) Ellen
Last name Hogg
Age Minor
Marriage year 1845
Marriage date 24 Dec 1845
Marriage place Hull, St Mary
Residence High Street
Father's name(s) Tristram Hogg
Spouse's first name(s) James
Spouse's last name Spencer (Labourer)
Spouse's age Full Age
Spouse's residence High Street
Spouse's father's name(s) Thomas Spencer (Labourer, deceased)
County Yorkshire (East Riding)
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
---------------------------------------------

and baptism for James?

Name: James Spencer
Age: 0
Birth Date: Abt 1819
Baptism Date: 11 Jul 1819
Baptism Place: Glinton, Northamptonshire, England
Parish as it Appears: Glinton
Register Type: Parish Registers
Father: Thomas Spencer
Mother: Ann Spencer
-----------------------------------

There's a few newpaper articles which I'll post later, but it looks as though James may have gone by the name John too.

Looks like it, AustinQ.

Ellen's birthplace is variable - in 1851 it's Scrafton, Yorkshire, and in 1861 it's Derby.

I can't see a death for Ellen in East Riding between 1861 and 1871, nor a marriage of James to an Emily in either Lincolnshire or Hull area in the same period , if the 1871 posted on 4th July @ 12:07 is the same family. John and Samuel's birth years certainly fit, as does young Emily's with the info we've been given.

I suppose it could be just the one wife throughout, as details seem to be very changeable.

Possibly Ellen's christening?


Ellen Hogg
England Births and Christenings
Name Ellen Hogg
Gender Female
Christening Date 07 Nov 1831
Christening Place COVERHAM WITH HORSEHOUSE,YORK,ENGLAND
Father's Name Tristram Hogg
Mother's Name Sarah

I wonder if this is another child of James?

Births Mar 1868 (>99%)
SPENCER Ellen Sculcoates 9d 149


Deaths Sep 1869 (>99%)
Spencer Ellen 1 Sculcoates 9d 100

Also had a pm from Sheila

Just a little more information Emma's surname & her father's surname on Emma's marriage certificate are both Spencer his occupation is down as manure merchant.


I have tried to encourage Sheila to reply on here but am failing miserably :-(

THE LONDON GAZETTE, DECEMBER 7, 1860.

subsisting between the undersigned, James Spencer and Tristram Hogg, lately carrying on business as Manure. Manufacturers ... Kingston-upon-Hull aforesaid.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/22457/page/4982/data.pdf



ENG-EAST-YORKS-L [ERY] Saturday April 23rd 1864; The Hull News. 1

searches2.rootsweb.com/th/read/ENG-EAST-YORKS/.../0999468966

2 Sep 2001 - had inspected an artificial manure manufactory in Church Street, Wincolmlee, in the occupation of Mr JAMES SPENCER, and found it to be a ...


(above if they relate from google)

(second one as below, FMP Newspapers)


22 April 1864 - Hull Packet - Hull, East Riding of Yorkshire, England

A complaint was received from a gentleman residing in Kirkwood street, Lockwood street, of the nuisance caused by a deposit of manure on a piece of waste ground in the neighbourhood. It was resolved that a sub-committee inspect the premises, with a view to the abatement of such nuisance. Inspector reported that he had inspected an artificial manure manure factory in Church street Wilcolmlee, in the occupation of Mr James Spencer, and found it to be a nuisance to the neighbourhood.

Chris :)

(possibly the Tristram Hogg, 1861 (b. 1801) occ. Guano Merchant)

(Marriage, 1826 Coverham. Sarah Rider)

(Guano, relating to Fertilizer)


http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(above link could have more siblings relating James, Glinton, Northants.)


http://hdhdata.org/cgi-bin/showpage.pl?d2787&f00009

Tristram Hogg [217069]
Sarah Rider [217081] m.30_Dec_1826, Coverham,Yorkshire, England
wife of Tristram Hogg
Ann Hogg [217082]
b.1829
Ellen Hogg [217083]
b.1831
Sarah Hogg [217084]
b.1834
Ann Hogg [217085]
b.1835
Thomas Hogg [217086]
b.1837

Marriage of brother Samuel:

First name(s) Samuel
Last name Spencer (Occ: Joiner)
Age 22
Birth year 1858
Marriage year 1880
Marriage date 04 Jul 1880
Marriage place Hull, St Stephen, Holy Trinity
Residence 59 North St
Father's name(s) James Spencer- Manure merchant
Spouse's name(s) Alice Royal
Spouse's age 18
Spouse's residence 59 North St
Spouse's father's name(s) Edward Royal
County Yorkshire (East Riding)
Country England
Archive East Riding Archives & Local Studies Service
---------------------------------------------------

sorry I meant she was married in Hull
on the 1891, 1901 & 1911 census they all say she was born in hull and with her living in hull I thought she was born in hull but as I cannot find any information on her birth it looks like this is not the case, on her marriage certificate it says she was a spinster , her father was James and he was a manure merchant,

Can you give us Witness names, and (out of interest!) Father of Walter, his occupation...

Chris :)

Walter's father was Henry Rose (deceased) agricultural labourer
witness names John Henry Ingram & Sarah Ingram

Burial
County Norfolk
Place Strumpshaw
Church name St Peter
Register type Parish Register
Burial date 04 Apr 1895
Person age 84
Burial person forename Henry
Burial person surname ROSE
Register note Born July 19 1810

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(was just asking, as above has some Strumpshaw, in case anything related!, or Census entries, although above not matching 1891 Marriage. Just ignore this!)

Chris :)

(from address below, same as Walter 1891, probably Witness)

1891
Stainforth Place, Holy Trinity and St Mary, Hull, Yorkshire
John H Ingram Son Single Male 19 1872 Wagonetter Driver Hull, Yorkshire.


Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Norwich
Church name Primitive Methodist Circuit
Register type Transcript
Baptism date 06 Jun 1852
Birth date 13 May 1852
Person forename Henry Walter
Father forename Henry
Father surname ROSE
Father occupation Labourer
Mother forename Mary


Births Jun 1852 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
ROSE Walter Henry Blofield 4b 193


1861 (Find My Past)
Henry Rose Head Married Male 47 1814 Agricultural Labourer North Barsham, Norfolk, England
Mary Ann Rose Wife Married Female 47 1814 - Ickburgh, Norfolk, England
Edward Rose Son Unmarried Male 14 1847 Agricultural Labourer Strumpshaw, Norfolk, England
Walter Rose Son - Male 9 1852 Scholar Strumpshaw, Norfolk, England
Street Rock Lane
Parish Strumpshaw
County Norfolk
Ecclesiastical district Norwich
Registration district Blofield
Enumeration district 9
Archive reference RG09
Piece number 1226
Folio number 118

Walter was born in Strumpshaw Norfolk