Genealogy Chat

Oh, but born Cork, not Dublin.


James Henry Williams
in the UK, Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services, 1853-1928
Name: James Henry Williams
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 23 Nov 1874
Birth Place: Cork, Ireland
Service number: 155412
First Service Date: 16 May 1890
First Ship Served On: Impregnable <<<< As in 1891 census above
Last Service Date: 27 May 1898
Last Ship Served On: Terror


Signed up for 12 years, but bought himself out in 1897-8.
Served on: Impregnable, Cruiser, Fearless, Victory 1, Excellent, Victory 1 (again), and Terror.

Re:
"1891 James was at Devon, Royal Navy"


??? ( YOB and birthplace same as 1911 census posted by AustinQ)

James Williams
in the 1891 England Census
Name: James Williams
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1875 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Relation: Crew
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Royal Navy
Town: Devonport Hamoaze
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Occupation: Sea RN Boy
Registration district: Stoke Damerel
ED, institution, or vessel: Impregnable
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1743
Folio: 152
Page Number: 20


Why do you think James was in the RN? (Or have I missed a bit of this thread?)

Wow getting excited now
Sorry I meant 2016 Annie would be 142 not 1916
Stanley lived in 120 Vine street, his wife to be in 107 Vine street
Sounds like his mother could have been at 79 Vine street or am I just Hoping it was her ?

I am just hoping its James in Royal Navy 1891 I cant get any further with RN record ? not sure where to go ?

I don't take all ancestry entries as proof ...

How do you know this is James in 1891?

1891 James was at Devon, Royal Navy

Do you have his RN record?

Coincidence?

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
48 Canterbury Street, Everton, West Derby, Lancashire, England

Fred W Godsell Head Married Male 46 1845 Coach Painter Worcestershire, England
Mary Godsell Wife Married Female 48 1843 - Ireland
Richd H Godsell Son Single Male 14 1877 Wine Merchants Apprentice Liverpool,
Frances W Godsell Son - Male 12 1879 School Boy Liverpool, England
James Williams Boarder Single Male 46 1845 Ship Carpenter Bristol
Ellen Oakley Boarder Widow Female 49 1842 Tailoress Ireland

The locked records for the Annies you are seeing are for Annies born w/in the last 100 years for whom no death was recorded. :-)

If your Annie was living in 1939, you would be able to see her record in the 1939, if it could be identified.

More likely, she had died by that date. She was 42 (not 142?!) in 1916? (it says 39 in that census I think) ... so 23 years later would have made her 75 (or 72), and many people did not live that long.

Her name is so very common that it would be very difficult to identify a death.

Or ... do you know that Annie was living in 1939 and died after that?

Is there a house number on Vine St on the 1930 marriage certificate? it seems to have been very heavily populated in 1939 ...

there is this entry

79 Vine Street , Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England
Anne Williams 08 May 1870 Female Cook Retired Widowed

Hi Sorry I keep looking for stuff and forgetting to give you the whole picture
Address as follows
1891 James was at Devon, Royal Navy
1897 Marriage 48 Canterbury street,L'pool. Annie Byrne at 7 Benson street
1901 Wilmot street,Everton
1911 52 Crown street ,l'pool
1905 Kensington street (Stanley's birth)
1930 Stanley mc Vine street l'Pool
1939 Stanley 21 Pepper street,Chester
Looked in 1939 for Annie so many and all locked ,have sent email to FMP asking why it would be locked for someone aged 142 in 1916 !! its 100 years max

Hi Sandra, I'm going to post the info you sent by private message since anyone who wants to help needs to see it, and it would just get lost in my inbox w/o any reference to match it to. :-)

***********

Thanks for your latest information

I have the marriage certificate For James and Annie, Both fathers Thomas which I think Stanley said it was his fathers name or some confusion why he didn't say James

On their mc one of the witnesses is Maria(Cissie) Williams same address as James so I presume brother and sister but having great difficulty trying to find a birth or marriage entry for Cissie ,tried google her name maybe Priscilla ????....any ideas gratefully received

***********

I suspect Stanley really didn't know his father's name, and maybe assumed that since Thomas was his older brother's and grandfather's name, it was his father's name too. Or just said the same thing as his wife said. Or the person taking down the info muddled it up.

Does the witness's name say 'Maria (Cissie) Williams'? If so, I would suspect Cissie was just a nickname. It seems an odd way to sign the name though!

Can you tell us what the address is? We could check it in the 1939 register to see whether anyone related is there then.

this is a death that could match James Williams married to Anna/Annie Byrnes/Burns as in the 1911 census posted on page 1

>> James Williams Head Married Male Cabinet Maker 36 1875 Dublin Ireland
Annie Williams Wife Married Female - 39 1872 Dublin Ireland
Thomas Williams Son - Male School 12 1899 Liverpool
Annie Williams Daughter - Female - 7 1904 Liverpool
Stanley Williams Son - Male - 5 1906 Liverpool

Deaths Dec 1928
Williams James 54 W.Derby 8b 621

age 54 in late 1928 probably = dob 1874


possible marriage? (married 13 years in 1911)

Marriages Dec 1897
> Byrne Ann Liverpool 8b 267
GROGAN Charles Liverpool 8b 267
Smith Mary Liverpool 8b 267
> Williams James Liverpool 8b 267

re the 1911 census, the two Williams households, Caroline and Elizabeth at the same address, in Swansea

both household schedules have a blank line where the head of household would be

both have a first page that names the head of household

for Caroline's household it is W Williams

for Elizbeth's household it is J T (or J F?) Williams

this is the other child in the household for info

Births Sep 1909
Williams Sylvia Doreen Swansea 11a 1205

this is Caroline's household in 1891 in Swansea

William Williams 37
Caroline Williams 37
>> Frederick J. Williams 13
Caroline Williams 10
Charles H. Williams 8
Anna V. Williams 5
Florence L. Williams 3

Marriages Sep 1902
Ching Edith Swansea 11a 1495
Joullie Daniel Frank Swansea 11a 1495
> Wilkinson Elizabeth Swansea 11a 1495
> Williams James Frederick Swansea 11a 1495

this is not your SJW as you say ... and for additional info:

in 1911 daugher Sylia Dorren Williams is shown as born in Garston, a ditto to Elizabeth, as is son Stanley James

in fact Sylvia was born in Swansea, and the parents married in Swansea

so I expect this is actually the birth of the SJW with parents James Frederick Williams and Elizabeth Wilkinson, in Swansea in the 1911 census

Births Jun 1905
Williams Stanley James Swansea 11a 1145


with this household ruled out, and that SJW having actually been born in Swansea, we have the 1911 SJW, with parents James and Annie and brother Thomas, being the one born in W Derby

Births Sep 1905
Williams Stanley James W. Derby 8b 616

as I understand it you have this birth certificate

Births Sep 1905
Williams Stanley James W. Derby 8b 616

'I have discovered the birth cert shows father as James Williams , , Joiner Journeyman
However on Stanley James marraige cert shows his father as Thomas Joseph Williams , cabinet maker journeyman (deceased)'

who is the mother on that certificate? or have I missed that ...

'The Thomas Joseph you found as James brother cant be ....as TJ mother was Anna Margarita Burns ans James mother was Anna Teresa Byrnes'

Burns/Byrnes were interchangeable spellings ... Byrnes came from Ireland and became Burns in England, often simply because that was how an English official spelled the name when the person was not literate.

the coincidence between the two names strikes me as rather ... striking. As between Margarita and Teresa, one of them could have been a baptismal name.

unfortunately, familysearch shows numerous Anna Teresa Byrne(s) births c1871-72 in Ireland and specifically Dublin.



So the death record posted by Detective is your Stanley, who died in England and not in the US (supported by the fact that his 'last residence' was the US Consulate in England, England being where he would have been receiving social security benefits he was entitled to)

so what you are now looking for is ancestor information?

By the way, if you have details, there is no reason not to give them in the first place ... it is kind of pointless for people trying to help to know less than you already know, and all of us will go looking for any info that might be useful, assuming that if you do not provide it, you do not have it.

Detective..Thank you I now have Stanleys DC but informant is Ronald Julian Ross. Stanleys wife died previous year .

Joonie Cloonie...I have these details Thank You

Sylviaain Canada ...I can only find a Stanley J or Stanley James in 1911 with either a father James in Liverpool or
With a mother Elizabeth in Swansea
The Stanley in Swansea...his sister Sylvia was a family friend to another researcher and her Stanley never went to USA.

AustinQ...Yes this the family I found following the Birth Certificate which shows Father James.
The Thomas Joseph you found as James brother cant be ....as TJ mother was Anna Margarita Burns ans James mother was Anna Teresa Byrnes
Stanleys BC shows address 15 Kensington st. Liverpool, sub dist West Derby western.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to help
Whether Stanley didnt want to name his father on Marraige Cert and named his Grandfather ????Thomas ...probably never find out

Thanks again , please feel free to give more suggestions xx

I first took a coach ride on the M-1 in 1961. I think, back then, the M-1 meant Watford-Rugby, although I was travelling London-Wigan (and presumably the coach continued to somewhere like Preston. Anyways, the coach had stewardesses

mgnv ............. that was certainly an adventure for your first week in the US :-D

I got the excitement of watching the Braniff stewardesses (women only back then) stripping off :-0

The uniform had been desugned by then-famous Italian designer Pucci ........... all bright multi-coloured.

They started off with a jacket, skirt, top and what looked like stockings, all in the same design.

After take-off, they removed one part of the uniform for each pass along the aisle. When they had got down to a top that had been under the first top and leggings (which were what I thought were stockings), I began to wonder what came next.

OH was laughing at me by this point ........... he'd flown by Braniff in the February , so knew.

In fact, they started putting clothing back on!

http://www.messynessychic.com/2015/01/06/the-1960s-pucci-air-hostess-uniforms-ideal-for-mile-high-stripping/

in case you wish to see

Such interesting memories, especially for those of us who’ve only been out of the country on holiday.

Looking at the 1940 census image provided by mgnv, there is a section about Social Security asking 3 questions.
1- Does this person have a federal Social Security number/
2 - Were deductions for Federal Old-Age Insurance or Railroad Retirement made from this person’s wages or salary in 1939?
3 - If so, were deductions made from (1) all (2) part, one-half or more (3) part, but less than one half of, or wages or salary.

Of the two people asked, one was a 53 year old female teacher who had earned $2900 the previous year. She’d answered No to the questions.
The other was a 10 year old boy.

I, too, worked for the university (at least, technically I did, but really I worked on a series of projects for the Forestry Service in the USDA)
I came over on the Queen Mary - very nice - 5.5 d to cross 5 time zones. It meant you could stay up late and still get up in time for breakfast.
I met acouple on the boat, and they (and her dad) agreed to give me a lift, so I didn't spend any time in NY After 5 min, the cab shot down a tunne and we wound up in an a tank farm in NJ, where their car was parked.
We drove that afternoon to Niagara Falls, but stayed on the US side. We drove to Kansas and dropped the couple off. On the way we had to take a 60 m detour as the Platte R was in flood. I remember thinking a 60 m detour in England would drop you off the edge.
I stayed overnight in the guest bunk-house, then continued with the dad. He was a brewmaster in Olympia - we parted near Slt Lake city when I-80 split into the Seattle branch I-80N and the San Francisco branch I-80S. I then hitched the last 1000 m to Berkeley.
The trip just over a week, and I was in Placerville CA looking at data when the independence day weekend came up, so I took advantage of the long w/e to hitch to Vancouver where my sis-i-l to be lived. It was an eventful trip. Around mid-day I was stuck on I-5, a concrete highway, outside Medford for 3 h on a day when it was 104F in Portland - I wound up with sunstroke. When I got back to Placerville, I got lost following an unlight path from the highway. I eventually spotted the bunk-house lights off to one side, so I pushed my way through a some trees and dense patch of low bushes towards the light and eventually got home. As I later found out, the bushes were poison oak, and I spent most of the early morning in the shower, until I got a ride into town to buy some calomine.
"Leaves in 3 - let it be"

I knew where my advisor lived in 1940, so I looked him up for +++DetEcTive+++
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K9Q7-851 [with image link]

I Googled ............. Wikipedia says ..........

Social Security Act signed August 14 1935, part of the New Deal ......... provided benefits to retirees and the unemployed, and a lump-sum benefit at death

Most women and minorities were excluded ........... job categories not covered included agricultural labor, domestic service, government employees, and many teachers, nurses, hospital employees, librarians, and social workers. People who worked intermittently were also denied coverage.

The exclusions exempted nearly half of the working population, including almost all women.

Payroll taxes first collected in 1937

Changes were made in the 1950s ............ in 1950, domestic servants working at least two days a week for the same person, nonprofit workers and those self-employed were added. In 1954, hotel workers, laundry workers, all agricultural workers, and state and local government employees were included.

That's why OH and I had SSN #s ............ university faculty and staff were state employees.


The maximum earnings that could be taxed from 1937 to 1950 was $3000 ...... it didn't change during those years.

Maybe that last is what is at the bottom of the 1940 census??

The 'subsidiary questions' at the bottom of the 1940 census images says something about SS numbers and payments. Could someone check the details on one?
Although it might help clarify who did have SSN or were making payments.

:-D :-D

I agree about Caucasian ......... it stumped me for a short while!

OH went end of February 1967, we got married in England in August and I "landed" on the 18 August '67 ...... first "landing for both of us was NY airport. He had a job in Texas, so we both had green alien cards and SSNs

First trip to Canada was right then .............. we landed in August, I went through US Immigration, and we flew up to Montreal where Expo 67 was on. 3 days there, then down to Texas via Braniff.