Genealogy Chat

Re Swiss rellies - check out (and its links):
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/location/1927039

Do you know which city or canton they're from?

Thank you RootGather I will make that my next job! :)

My mother has asked me to find her relatives ... ?? they are Swiss... I don't think I've got time to go back to work ;))
Well these searches have certainly kept me busy these passed couple weeks (I've been off work after surgery ) so thank you all, I think I'm going to have to stay a member of GR too!!!

A copy of William's death certificate may lead you to his second family via the informant.

I think that tracing back from Samuel Andrew Frith may prove tricky as there isn't an obvious census entry for him with a father William occupation Brewer.

RootGatherer - yes thank you so very much I have received these documents. I know they have got to be correct.

If any one can work out both William's (my Grandfather) and Samuel (My Great Grandfather) occupations I would be most grateful.

One thing that I found very touching was seeing Samuel & Lily's handwriting on their marriage cert...

So the next thing will be to get a hold of William Frith death certificate then?

I do feel quite sad that my William my real granddad didn't die till 1984, Our family could have had time getting to know him or even for my dad... to know that his dad did care about him and did love him and his sister would have been wonderful to know that before he died would have been peaceful & happiness but I understand he would have had his own second family around him.

I can't thank you all enough for your help.

Louisa, I've sent you the images of those two marriage certificates. Let me know if you get them ok or I'll try again.

Louisa, go slowly with the certificates. Your Grandparents' marriage certificate is on Ancestry, albeit it difficult to read. If we are correct about William's father, then his parents' marriage certificate is also available on Ancestry.

Some libraries have a subscription to Ancestry but Ancestry also over a pay as you go option which may work out cheaper than buying the certificates.

GRO- General Registry Office:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

it's where you can order your certificates on-line :)

You'll need the volume and page numbers from the indexes.

Hi Rootgatherer ok I am making a list of certificates that I will need to order to help confirm and put together all this wonderful information :)

what is GRO?

thank you Gritty that makes sense :)

I think Louisa, if you want to know about your Grandfather's life after his marriage to your Grandmother, your first step should be to order a copy of his death certificate. The informant's details may prove helpful. Remember to order from the GRO as they are cheaper than any other source.

Note the birth date on his baptism, matches the birth date given on his death:

Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms
Name: William Frith
Birth Date: 27 Nov
Baptism Date: 11 Dec 1907
Parish: Manchester, St Philip
Parish as it Appears: St Philip, Bradford Rd
Father's name: Samuel Frith (Spindle ?lder- possibly moulder)
Mother's name: Lily Frith
Reference Number: M299/3/1/7
Item Number: 2
Archive Roll: 857
Address: 25 Clayton Street.

Death:
First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name FRITH
Gender Male
Birth 27 November 1907
Death year 1984
Death quarter 1
District TRURO
Register number 384
County Cornwall
Volume 21 Page 703
Country England

mgnv - Thank you I have so much reading and understanding to do with the Frith family.

Jacqueline - THANK U
How did you get this information?
so quickly?
how sure are you that it is correct?
is there a way I can find out if Grace or her daughter Louisa was Anglo Indian/Indian... I would so love to know, we as a family have discussed this for years even when dad was alive... we all believe this is the case, as there were so many secrets & tales...
We know there was a lot of soldiers & British railway workers in India at this time having relationships with beautiful Indian women.

I so wish I had done this while dad was still alive, he would have LOVED it!

Thank you all :-)

First name(s) Edward William
Last name Pettit
Marriage year 1857
Marriage date 2 Nov 1857
Spouse's first name Charlis Eliza
Spouse's last name Ramage
Place Dagshai
Presidency Bengal
Groom's father's first name Richard
Groom's father's last name Pettit
Bride's father's first name Adam
Bride's father's last name Tilley
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-92
Folio number 862

First name(s) Charles Edward William
Last name Pettit
Baptism year 1859
Birth year 1859
Place Mynpoorie
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Eliza
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) Edward Charles William
Father's last name Pettit
Baptism date 12 Sep 1859
Birth date 05 Sep 1859
Archive reference N-1-96
Folio 32

First name(s) Edward William Charles
Last name Pettit
Marriage year 1883
Marriage date 6 Nov 1883
Spouse's first name Grace
Spouse's last name Beally
Place Chunar,Holy Trinity
Presidency Bengal
Groom's age 55
Bride's age 27
Groom's father's first name ORoger
Groom's father's last name Pettit
Bride's father's first name Charles
Bride's father's last name Beally
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-186
Folio number 56
Entry number -
Record set British India Office marriages

Re Alviegirl's 1901 census.

I think it's the right one - however, I think Elizabeth/Eliza is Ann's daur, and Sam's her grandson.

I don't know why Samuel Andrew is called Samuel Andrew Firth.
Here's what happened with my gg gran & her kids (names changed to match this thread). Elizabeth Frith had my g grandad George Frith - an illegitimate birth. She the married William Andrew, and had 2 kids - Samuel Andrew & Samantha Andrew. George was renamed as George Andrew. The marr didn't work out, and they separated. Elizabeth renamed George back to being George Frith, and renamed William's kids as Samuel Andrew Frith & Samantha Andrew Frith, When they were 21 one kid renamed himself back to Samuel Andrew, but the other kept
Samantha Andrew Frith until her marriage.

Using http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd in particular LancsBMD and ChesBMD, and also using:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND

1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQ8D-SJG
Ann Frith Head F 44 Ripley, Derbyshire, England
Elizabeth Andrew Sister F 26 Chapel Le Frith, Derbyshire, England
Samuel Andrew Nephew M 1 Guide Bridge, Cheshire, England
Thomas Swindell Lodger M 30 Manchester, Lancashire, England
[Guide Bridge is just N of Audenshaw]

1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KD6B-Y3H
William Frith Head M 44 Chapel-En-Le-Frith, Derbyshire
Ann Frith Wife F 38 Chapel-En-Le-Frith, Derbyshire
Eliza Frith Daughter F 17 Chapel-En-Le-Frith, Derbyshire
Wright Frith Son M 14 Disley, Cheshire
Samuel Frith Son M 12 Manchester

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ANDREW William FRITH Eliza Ancoats, St. Andrew Archives+, Manchester Central Library 16/2/449
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2332-BCR [with image link]

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1855
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
FRITH Wright Marple Stockport STEEPLES MAR/7/17
FRITH George Marple Stockport STEEPLES MAR/7/17

Maybe:
Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1856
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
FRITH George Leigh 0 Hyde Tameside HYD/17/58

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1858
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
FRITH Samuel London Road Archives+, Manchester Central Library STAPLES LRD/49/80

1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7F9-Z68
William Frith Ann 1827 city, Derbyshire, England Head city, Lancashire
Ann Frith William 1834 city, Derbyshire, England relation city, Lancashire
Eliza Frith William,Ann 1852 city, Derbyshire, England relation city, Lancashire
Wright Frith William,Ann 1855 city, Cheshire, England relation city, Lancashire
Samuel Frith William,Ann 1857 city relation city, Lancashire
[I don't have an Ancestry sub, so I can't tell if the Frith h/h contains non-Friths. the above straddles 2 pages in different folios viz rg9/2946/67 and rg9/2946/68]

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FRITH William STAPLES Ann Ancoats, St. Andrew Archives+, Manchester Central Library 16/1/135

Marriages Dec 1850 (>99%)
Frith William Manchester 20 432
Steeples Ann Manchester 20 432

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2332-Z9F [with image link]
[Note this is entry # 135, as implied by the local ref - I can quite see the Staples/Steeples ambiguity - I'm inclined to Steeples, as there'[s plenty of ordinary looking a's: Labourer, Servant, Ancoats, Samuel, Farmer, Sawyer]

Holy Corumba! This is so exciting! :)

Except I'm digressing from my true Grandad... but never mind...

I was always lead to believe that my aunt b1946 was a Collins & not a Frith and Hughey (Charles was always 'there' in the house since I was tiny.)
I'm not so keen to follow this lead as Aunt b.1946 took my Grandmother away from both my dad and his sister, and she was never seen again! :( distgusting behavior!

But I do have another question to ask... on the Singlehurst Line... I have come to a dead end! shall I post here?

So I am trying to find the mother of Louie/Louisa/Leese all that is listed is her name Grace ... I think she may be Indian... I'm so excited to be able to find this

Name: Louisa Augustus Pettit
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 02 Nov 1884
Christening Place: Allahabad, Bengal, India
Birth Date: 10 Sep 1884
Father's Name: Edward Pettit
Mother's Name: Grace

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C75029-5 , System Origin: India-EASy , GS Film number: 510874 , Reference ID: v 190 p 222

Mother's first name(s) Louie Magdalen

British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns- Births & Baptisms Transcription
First name(s) Elizabeth Grace
Last name Singlehurst
Baptism year 1907
Birth year 1907
Place Tundla
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Louie Magdalen
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) Alfred William
Father's last name Singlehurst
Baptism date 24 Mar 1907
Birth date 17 Feb 1907
Archive reference N-1-338
Folio 128
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal
Record set British India Office births & baptisms

There is also a re-registration of the 1946 birth in 1974

Hugh's first wife

COLLINS IVY CHARLOTTE 1905 1991 1991 Deaths & burials Huntingdon, Huntingdonshire, England

Alviegal -
you posted a 1901 census yesterday asking if Samuel Andrew could be Samuel Andrew Frith with the surname missing? It said that he was born in Guide Bridge, so have had a look around the census. Samuel Andrew born c 1879 seems to be quite a popular name in the area, but I think this may well be "your" Samuel in 1881 - and to make things more complicated (or maybe easier!!!!) he is nephew to a Frith.


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
21, Dearden Street, Manchester, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ann Frith Head Widow Female 44 1837 - Ripley, Derbyshire, England
Elizabeth Andrew Sister Married Female 26 1855 - Derbyshire, England
Samuel Andrew Nephew Single Male 1 1880 - Guide Bridge, Cheshire, England
Thomas Swindell Lodger Single Male 30 1851 Railway Porter Manchester, Lancashire, England

When I looked originally I saw the 1974 marriage come up to Collins and presumed (wrong thing to do) that the 1946 birth was either of the Frith/Singlehurst marriage or had been registered in Mother's name at the time - Frith, whether she was with William or not, that would have been her surname.

The 1946 birth is registered 3 times
1 x surname Frith mmn Singlehurst - the page number here differs slightly from one of those registered under Collins
2 x surname Collins mmn Singlehurst

Someone with better knowledge than me may be able to explain.

I'm thinking along the lines that they were not free to marry in 1946, so the child was registered as Frith/Singlehurst, but then Hughey Collins admitted paternity, so the birth was also registered that way. Maybe they weren't free to marry until 1974, but may just not have got around to it until then?