Genealogy Chat

Some years ago, I ordered a marriage certificate for Vernon Albert Mills Bradshaw, who according to the certificate married Henrietta Annie Foot on 27 January 1904 in Edmonton, Middlesex.

However, I have recently seen on the record transcription a note which says Vernon Albert Mills Bradshaw married either Henrietta Annie Foot or Ethel Harriett Dopson on 27 January 1904. Apparently, Henrietta Annie Foot married either Vernon Albert Mills Bradshaw or Edward George Goddard on that day.

There was evidently some sort of clerical error made at the registry office. However, my concern is whether I can somehow ascertain for certain which woman Vernon did marry on that day? Can anyone give me any suggestions in this regard?

Julie

No it means that at that a time there were two marriages to the one GRO page so the bridal couples weren't matched up

After 1911 you get the cross ref to the surnames so you can see which couple married

The one you have you can only determine the spouse by buying the actual cert which you have done


Quite often by looking at the next census after a marriage you can then see which couple married by the wife's name
Doesn't help though if both brides had the same Christian name ,then you would need the cert

As Shirley says...if you have the certificate then he married the person showing on there.

There were obviously two marriages per page at that time (sometimes you get four marriages per page or even more).

Kath. x

You probably have it but just in case

Name: Vernon Albert Mills Bradshaw
Military Year: 1914
Rank: Vol Driver
Medal Awarded: 1914 Star
Regiment or Corps: British Red Cross Society & Order of St John
Sub Unit: Motor Ambulance Unit No.3

Possible. Typical she is listed as Mrs Bradshaw. Will not be one 1911 census if correct person

First name(s) V A
Last name BRADSHAW
Gender Male
Marital status M
Departure year 1911
Departure day 22
Departure month 3
Departure port FISHGUARD
Destination port MELBOURNE
Destination MELBOURNE
State Victoria
Country AUSTRALIA
Destination country AUSTRALIA
Ship name ANCHISES
Ship official number 131320
Ship master's first name E
Ship master's last name WARRACE
Shipping line BLUE FUNNEL
City GLASGOW
Ship destination port BRISBANE
Ship destination country AUSTRALIA
Ship registered tonnage 6380
Number of passengers 4
Record set Passenger Lists leaving UK 1890-1960

"Edwin" George Goddard has a wife called Ethel Harriet on 1911 in Enfield - married 7 years


1911
Edwin George Goddard Head Married Male 32 1879 Clapton North London Machinest Small Arms Barrel Making
Ethel Harriett Goddard Wife Married Female 30 1881 Malden Essex
Henry George Goddard Son - Male 6 1905 Enfield Lock Middlesex
Edwin Clarence Goddard Son - Male 4 1907 Enfield Lock Middlesex
Ivy Ethel Goddard Daughter - Female 2 1909 Enfield Lock Middlesex
Thomas David Boarder Single Male 32 1879 Llanllawddog Carmarthen Wales Wireman G P O

Looking at births after 1911 then Goddard married Dopson

Thank you so much to Shirley, Kathleen, Rambling Rose and GlitterBaby. I am overwhelmed by the response to my question and all your replies have been so helpful! I am not even related to the Bradshaws, but I became obsessed with researching the family years ago when I came into possession of an old Bible listing the names of Job and Mary Bradshaw and their 13 children (of whom 4 died in infancy). This left 8 brothers and only one sister, who was the youngest. The Bible lists their dates of birth and deaths. I wanted to trace a living descendant so that I could pass the Bible on to them. I thought it would be easy because in Queen Victoria's time huge families were the norm. However, my research revealed that amazingly only one of the brothers married and had a child, and that child was Vernon Albert Mills Bradshaw. However, I was unable to find any evidence that Vernon had any children and the trail went cold. However, I have just been contacted by a lady in Australia who says one of her relatives married Vernon in Australia in 1921. (This would have been his second marriage, so not sure what happened to his first wife Henrietta Annie Bradshaw, nee Foot?) It seems they had a son and there may also be a grandson who was born in England but later returned to Australia in the 60s/70s. So I may be able to pass the Bible on to a direct descendant after all! If any of you would like to read an account of my research into the Bradshaw family so far, you can do so by going to www.authorsden.com and searching under Julie Leek. The article is entitled Back to the Bradshaws. Thank you so much for your help. :-)

Thankyou for the link Julie, having seen the comments on Vernon's medal card on Ancestry I was a bit intrigued!

Julie - Perhaps an actual example will help you realize what's going on here.

Here's an image of an original 1904 official marr rego - this one's for Bolton since it's online and free:

http://tinyurl.com/pg69tg9

[One can tell it's original by the signatures.]
A copy of this page was made for the local office (Bolton RD) and another copy made for the GRO.

The GRO bound their copy into vol 8c of 1904q1 marriages - it wound up on page 403 of that volume


Here's the entries in the GRO index that point to that page:

Marriages Mar 1904 (>99%)
Barton Emily Annie Bolton 8c 403
Blagg Francis Bolton 8c 403
Davenport Lucy Bolton 8c 403
Pilkington Edwin Bolton 8c 403

Note that, from this alone, it's not possible to say Edwin wed Emily - he could have wed Lucy or even Francis from what we can see here.


One can buy a certified copy of the marr entry (i.e., an m.cert) from either the GRO, or the local office that now holds the copies of that rego, or (if it's in their current rego) from the church where the marr took place.
Now some local offices have their own online indexes (or partial indexes) - see http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
In particular, http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1904
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BLAGG Francis DAVENPORT Lucy Bolton, All Souls Bolton 13/2/95
PILKINGTON Edwin BARTON Emily A Bolton, All Souls Bolton 13/2/96

The local ref has three elements:
1) a church code (or subdistrict code for Bs & Ds). Here the code "13" is decoded as "Bolton, All Souls" - not all local indexes tell you the decoding.
2) a register # - 2 here. This 2nd rego happened to start in Aug 1901 and end in Aug 1915.
3) an entry # or page # - usually, entry #s are used for marrs, so one knows who wed whom.
Even when page #s are used for marrs, occasionally the GRO pages and local pages are not aligned, and one can still say who wed whom.

The local B & D regos have 500 entries and 100 pages.
Church regos (and their local copies) have 500 entries & 250 pages.
The registrar's own marr regos (used for rego office marrs, and for non-conformist marrs held in registered buildings (churches) where there was no authorized person holding an official marr rego - so a registrar would need to attend with his/her official rego) had 200 entries and 100 pages.
The copies made for the GRO initially had twice as many entries per page as the local regos, but they were reduced to the same for marrs in 1852q1, and Bs & Ds in 1911q3.
Each new church or subdistrict begins on a new page and continues until the quarter is used up - so the last page for that church or subdistrict is often a partial page, or even a blank page if the quarter ends on the first side of the page (so GRO blank pages have even #s).

Seems there was a Doris Bradshaw on the same trip as Vernon, I just wonder if this is the Doris he married

Name: Doris Bradshaw
Port of Departure: Liverpool
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 10 Jan 1921
Vessel Name: Ceramic

Name: Vernon A Bradshaw
Port of Departure: Liverpool
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 10 Jan 1921
Vessel Name: Ceramic

No death found for Henrietta, now my mind is working overtime!

Hang on to that bible! Seems there's a child born by the second wife

MGNV, thank you so much for the very detailed information. I sent a query to the GRO and didn't get anything like such a comprehensive explanation.

I have now ascertained from the marriage certificate that Vernon Albert Mills Bradshaw married Henrietta Anna Foot in 1904.

Claire, thank you so much for the valuable information you sent me. I have a contact in Tazmania who recently contacted me through another genealogical site saying that Vernon married a kinswoman of her's (Doris Gloster) in 1921, and that they had a son in 1923, born in England. I have therefore sent for Anthony V Gloster Bradshaw's birth certificate, Marylebone 1a 710, Sept 1923. My contact also told me there could be a grandson living in Australia and she is trying to track him down but apparently you have to have the person's permission to acquire a copy of their birth certificate in that country. I wonder if that rule just applies to people who are still living?

Still no trace of Vernon's first wife, Henrietta Annie Bradshaw (nee Foot), who he married in 1904. I have found that Vernon made a trip to Australia in 1911 accompanied by "Mrs Bradshaw". Did Henrietta die in Australia or did they divorce? My contact has sent for a marriage certificate for Vernon's marriage to Doris and hopefully it will state whether he was a widower or a divorcee.

This could be Henrietta although it's difficult to say without the 1911 cenus

Deaths Dec 1948 (>99%)
Bradshaw Henrietta A 67 W.Ham 5a 533

Thanks again Claire. I'll check that out. This Henrietta would be the right age as she was 22 years old when she married Vernon in January 1904.

First name(s) Vernon A M
Last name Bradshaw
Service number -
Rank -
Corps Unit No 3 British Red Cross Society
Service record Corps: Unit No 3 British Red Cross Society
Archive reference WO372/3
Archive reference description Campaign Medal Index Cards and Silver War Badge Cards
Country Great Britain
Image link http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D1450781



First name(s) Vernon Albert Mills
Last name Bradshaw
Initials V A M
Rank Chauffeur
Certificate number 2497
Department Motor
Passport number 125899
Destination Boulogne
Record set British Red Cross Register of Overseas Volunteers 1914-1918
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & service records
Collections from Great Britain

There is NO record of Doris Gloster marrying Vernon Bradshaw, or, indeed of Vernon Bradshaw marrying anyone named Doris

BTW, the child born 1923 is Anthony V Bradshaw. 'Gloster' is not a forename


.First name(s) VERNON A
Last name BRADSHAW
Gender Male
Age 38
Birth year 1882
Marital status M
Occupation AGENT
Departure year 1920
Departure day 18
Departure month 11
Departure port LIVERPOOL
Destination port SYDNEY
Destination SYDNEY
State New South Wales
Country AUSTRALIA
Destination country AUSTRALIA
Ship name CERAMIC
Ship official number 135474
Ship master's first name GEO R
Ship master's last name METCALFE
Shipping line WHITE STAR
City LIVERPOOL
Ship destination port SYDNEY
Ship destination country AUSTRALIA
Ship registered tonnage 18481
Number of passengers 487
Record set Passenger Lists leaving UK 1890-1960
Category Travel & migration
Subcategory Passenger lists
Collections from Australasia, Great Britain, Ireland, United States
Transcriptions © brightsolid online publishing ltd

People with same last name on this voyage
State First name(s) Last name Title
New South Wales DORIS BRADSHAW...



First name(s) VERNON A
Last name BRADSHAW
Gender Male
Age 40
Birth year 1881
Marital status M
Occupation NIL
Departure year 1921
Departure day 28
Departure month 5
Departure port BIRKENHEAD
Destination port SHANGHAI
Destination SHANGHAI
Country CHINA
Destination country CHINA
Ship name TAMBA MARU
Ship official number 1803
Ship master's first name N
Ship master's last name NATSUYAMA
Shipping line NIPPON YUSEN KAISHA
City BIRKENHEAD
Ship destination port JAPAN
Ship destination country JAPAN
Ship registered tonnage 3570
Number of passengers 83
Record set Passenger Lists leaving UK 1890-1960
Category Travel & migration
Subcategory Passenger lists
Collections from Australasia, Great Britain, Ireland, United States
Transcriptions © brightsolid online publishing ltd
People with same last name on this voyage
State First name(s) Last name Title
- DORIS BRADSHAW - AGE 24!

First name(s) VERNON ALBERT
Last name BRADSHAW
Title MR
Gender Male
Age 42
Birth year 1884
Marital status M
Occupation MOTOR AGENT
Departure year 1926
Departure day 7
Departure month 4
Departure port SOUTHAMPTON
Destination port GENOA
Destination GENOA
Country ITALY
Destination country ITALY
Ship name KONINGIN DER NEDERLANDEN
Ship master's first name J
Ship master's last name VEENLOVEN
Shipping line NEDERLAND ROYAL MAIL LINE
City SOUTHAMPTON
Ship destination port JAVA
Ship destination country INDONESIA
Ship registered tonnage 8500
Number of passengers 83
Record set Passenger Lists leaving UK 1890-1960
Category Travel & migration
Subcategory Passenger lists
Collections from Australasia, Great Britain, Ireland, United States
Transcriptions © brightsolid online publishing ltd
People with same last name on this voyage
State First name(s) Last name Title
- DORIS GRACE BRADSHAW MRS

Births Jun 1897 (>99%)
Gloster Doris Grace Aston 6d 454