Genealogy Chat

My 2x gt grandfather was registered in 1844 by his father.... The mothers details said Mary Ann Smith formally parsons

Parsons was her maiden name but she was supposed to be married to someone else as they didn't marry for another 20 years but my 3x gt grandfather decided to make out they were already married

Either parent can register a birth nowadays, just as they could then.

The only difference is where the parents are unmarried, in which case, if the father wishes to be named on the birth cert, he must attend with the mother, or sign a declaration affirming his wish to be identified as the child's father.

Hi MGNV, I think i'll have to order his death cert. I would like to know how he died and how he ended in Austrailia. I think with all the info i've found and been given he must have still been working on the ships.. I may never find this out for sure.

Jaqueline, yes I think you're right. I will order their marriage cert. I did wonder about who would register the birth back in those days. I don't suppose they both had to be there like today or even the mother??

Only one result in 1911 for Sarah Davies in Liverpool born 1906 +/- 2 years

Keep in mind for cross-checking when you get the copy marriage cert

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
1 /10 Court Leeds St Liverpool, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
John Davies Head Married Male 29 1882 Liverpool Lancashire C Carter Navy Transcription
Elizabeth Davies Wife Married Female 29 1882 Liverpool Lancashire C No Business Transcription
Beta Davies Son - Male 7 1904 Liverpool Lancashire C No Business (Image is Peter)
Sarah Davies Daughter - Female 5 1906 Liverpool Lancashire C No Business Transcription
Norah Davies Daughter - Female 3 1908 Liverpool Lancashire C No Business Transcription
Susan Davies Daughter - Female 1 1910 Liverpool Lancashire C No Business Transcription

The best way to resolve this is to get a copy of the marriage cert for Gilmartin to Morgan

Sarah's father's name and occupation will be on it, and it will also give you info about her 'status'

For the sake of spending £9.25, you can have all the answers in one go

If the marriage posted above by Gritty is connected, this could also be relevant


Deaths Dec 1925 (>99%)
Morgan William 22 W.Derby 8b 631

If Sarah had been married before..... Which looks possible.... It could depend on who registered the births as to what info was given

If Sarah registered them she would know her maiden name so would say Davies

If her husband registered them he may have said the name he married her as which was Morgan

Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1905
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
GILMARTIN Charles Oldham South Oldham GIBBONS OSOU/2/220

Maybe:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1904
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
KILMARTIN Charles GIBBONS Mary Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/108/55



http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/ResearchAndGenealogy/Search.aspx
Summary Of Record Information
First Name CHARLES Application Number
Last Name GILMARTIN KB00122481
Karrakatta Burial
Aged (Years) 58 Date of Death 29/08/1963
Suburb FREMANTLE
Grave Location
KARRAKATTA CEMETERY
Cemetery
ROMAN CATHOLIC
Area or Denomination
NA
Section
0659
Gravesite


Although most non-conformists were authorized to keep official marr registers from 1899, RCs were only authorized in the 1980s.
From 1837-1898, only the C of E, jews & quakers (and the state registrars) were authorized to keep official marr rego's.
If a non-conformist ceremony were held, and the church had no official marr rego, then a registrar would have to attend with his official register for the couple to sign to complete the ceremony.


Re:
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1942
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
GILMARTIN Sarah Oldham Second Oldham DAVIES OLD2ND/14/162
GILMARTIN Sarah Oldham Second Oldham MORGAN OLD2ND/14/162

The last element of a local ref (the 162) can, in general, be either an entry # or a page #.
The local birth rego's held 500 entries at 5 per page, so 100 pages - so this is an entry #, and the two index entries refer to the same b.cert.
Evidently Sarah's mum had two surnames at some point. The most likely reason is one was her previous married surname (if she were a widow or divorcee when she entered her present marr) and the other her maiden surname.
However, it can happen earlier than that - one might be her stepfather's name and the other her birth surname.

I can't thank you all enough. Things are coming together now. I have found my grandads brothers and sisters and 2 others that we weren't aware of who had sadly passed away young. He was one of 9.
Gritty & Jaquline - That Davies / Morgan information helped me find the others - Some have their mothers maiden name as Morgan some as Davies. Not sure why that would be as they aren't in any date order? - but at least i'm getting there!

Ok Great, thank you.

Good idea, I might try that.

When I first started my family tree I sent out a letter, with a questionnaire to as many family members as I could find.

I explained that I was interested in the family tree and would appreciate any information that might help me. I included a questionnaire asking date of birth, parents, grandparents, aunts & uncles etc. I told them not to worry if they weren't sure of dates or exact names- oh and I included a section for family stories and other.

I had mixed response as well as some that didn't reply, but i gained a huge amount of info- it is worth doing, even if you don't know them very well. If they don't reply, you've only lost the price of a stamp.

The marriage you posted above looks correct for Charles- ordering this should tell you if either of them were married previously

First Name CHARLES
Last Name GILMARTIN
Gender Male
Year 1927
Spouse MORGAN
Image Quarter 2
Country England
County Lancashire
District WEST DERBY
District Number
Registry Number
Volume 8B
Page 885
Line Number 33
Entry Number
Category Births, Marriages & Deaths
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Collections from Great Britain
Spouse MatchSpouse Match: Charles GILMARTIN married Sarah MORGAN
First Name SARAH
Last Name MORGAN
Gender Female
Year 1927
Spouse GILMARTIN
Image Quarter 2
Country England
County Lancashire
District WEST DERBY
District Number
Registry Number
Volume 8B
Page 835
Line Number 68
Entry Number
Category Births, Marriages & Deaths
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Collections from Great Britain
© brightsolid online publishing ltd

I don't have the marriage cert. Only the details of the marriage from this site. Think i'll need to order that. It may answer a lot of questions.

oh wow! i'll look into that now.
We don't really speak to be honest. That's why i'm trying to find all this out. There are so many mixed stories.

One possible maybe that Sarah was married before?? Do you have Sarah and Charles Marriage certificate ? (If not- this will give you details about Sarah's age, whether she was single/ widowed etc)?

Putting this up just in case it's relevant:

Name SARAH DAVIES
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1925
SARAH DAVIES married WILLIAM MORGAN
Spouse's last name MORGAN
District WEST DERBY
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8B
Page 1011

Yes- I think the easiest way to sort out if they have the same parents would be to order one of their birth certificates -alternatively you could contact them? are you in touch with any of your father's siblings?

Jacqueline used the Lancashire BMD site, where Sarah's birth is listed under MMN Davies and Morgan :

http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/

You can order certificates from:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

How would I find out if those you have written above have the same mother & father.. Charles & Sarah - would it be to order one of their birth certs?

What is this that Jaquleine found?:

This is rather strange

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1942
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
GILMARTIN Sarah Oldham Second Oldham DAVIES OLD2ND/14/162
GILMARTIN Sarah Oldham Second Oldham MORGAN OLD2ND/14/162

Merchant Seamen Transcription

Name: CHARLES Gilmartin
Birth year 1905
Birth place Oldham
Birth county Lancashire
Place OLDHAM
Discharge number R 103698
Identity certificate number -
Card type CR2
Date range 1921-1941
Series BT348
Piece number 1
Record set Merchant Navy Seamen

On the original image it has:

CR2---------------------- Dis. A. No R103698
Seaman now using R148539- no action owing to lapse of time. (dated 8/ 10/ 45)
Date if Dis: 14. 4. 32

It then has ship numbers and dates on the reverse from 1935- 1938

Thank you. I have emailed them. Fingers crossed.

Emma, I think Jacqueline is on to something- the other names you mention are all listed with Mother's maiden name Davies

John 1932
Christopher 1936
Christina 1939
Sarah 1942
Veronica 1944 (possibly Vera?)

Are you in touch with any of these relatives? They may know more

This is the link to the Ask a Librarian service for Western Australia.
http://yourenquiryservice.slwa.wa.gov.au/reft100.aspx?pmi=iX9pk6wg07

If Charles did die in an accident there is probably a newspaper report and may be reporting from a coroners inquest. Ask them to have a look for you.
The alternative is to order a copy of his DC which could work out rather expensive once you've purchased an AU$ money order. Again, the ALS might be able to suggest another way to pay.

Did he arrive c1955? Difficult to tell. The full records for that entry are not yet in the public domain. There is nothing to indicate his YOB. Qq You could do an Internet search for the vessel. It's possible he was a crewman who signed off in Australia or alternatively thats the first year he landed in there as part of a round voyage. It does make me wonder why, at his age, he felt the need to start a new life in Australia but no stories within the family to say that his wife was going to join him.