Genealogy Chat

I would think that the reference to the marriage 'cert' actually means the GRO index.

The marriage was not CofE, so no hope of info on LancsOPC.

The marriage to Elizabeth produced two children, the younger of them being Karen's father (William)

I agree Jacqueline, I don't think Karen has the marriage certificate, just the GRO reference details from the index. Given that William's son seems to have emigrated, perhaps that is why Karen doesn't have the certificate.

Karen, you really need to buy that marriage certificate and hopefully it will provide enough information to trace William's birth. Then you can base your tree on fact.

I will let Karen know she has replies.

William Whitham marriage certificate to Elizabeth Nunn states he was born in 1899 fathers name was Charles Whitham noted on marriage certificate deceased. Merchant navy seamen records state he was born in Salford Lancashire date of death 1935 at sea. I have researched all birth certificates for that period and none of the fathers names are Charles. They were called Dore and some of them did not change their name in the first world war. I know this as my mother said that my fathers uncle lived in the same street Broomhall Road in Swinton which must of been William Whithams brother his name was Fred that was in 1957. Are there records that show change of name (deed poll). Surely people couldnt just change their name and there are no records? :-(

Rootgatherer I have the marriage certificate. Thats how I found Elizabeth Nunn's parents.

'deceased' fathers sometimes didn't exist............to cover illegitimacy.

A person can call himself whatever he wishes, as long as there is no intent to deceive or defraud

from your post....

They were called Dore and some of them did not change their name in the first world war.

Please explain

I was told by my father that they originally came from Germany. Some were interned on the Isle of White with the name Dore. I do not know anything else except that some of the sons were in the navy and army fighting for England whilst their parents were interned. I am assuming that the name was changed by Charles Whitham that is noted on William Whitham's marriage certificate deceased in 1923. William Whitham could be older or younger than 1899 I have exhausted all avenues of finding his birth certificate. When he join the Merchant Navy did he not have to produce a birth certificate. It states on all his discharges that he was born in 1899 Salford Lancashire.

Also on the wedding certificate it states Charles Whitham deceased and also a merchant seaman. Cant find him either!!!!! Very frustrating. Its like they never existed

PS my dad also told me that they got the name Whitham off a butcher shop!!

Karen


in England and Wales, anyone can change their name, as long as it is not for nefarious purposes.

There are several ways of doing this ................

1. By Deed Poll .......... which requires paying a lawyer to do it. There is often a record of this type of name change on the National Archives site


2. By publishing a notice in the legal notices section of a local newspaper that will say basically ............... "as of January 15 1920, I, Jim Smith, will henceforward be called Charley Horseswinger. Charley Horseswinger will not be responsible for any debts owed by Jim Smith".

I saw lots of such notices in my home town newspaper back in the 1950s and 1960s.

The cost for the insertion of the notice is very small.


3. Simply by announcing to those who need to that you will be called Charley Horseswinger from such-and-such a date.

Those who "need to know" would include the bank, family, and possibly no-one else.

No cost.

Sometimes no-one would be told :-)



Most people went the route of the second or third alternative.



and it was, and I believe still is, perfectly legal.



There will of course be no record of any name changes by the second or third alternative, unless you can happen to find the legal notice in the paper.



Many people with Germanic names did indeed change their names ................... but this was much more common during WW1.


I simply cannot think of any reason why anyone would need to change their name before 1900.



I have seen occasions when helping others where a name change occurred because one member of the family was a criminal, or the family had got into a lot of trouble in their home village or town .......... they moved elsewhere, changed their name, and got a fresh start (one hopes)

Karen .................

an English or Welsh marriage certificate does not give the year of birth of either groom or bride .............. it gives the age in years

and anyone can lie on a marriage certificate ................ about age, name, marital status, name of father


One does not have to show any kind of documentation to prove your age, marital status (eg, divorced, widowed or single), or name of your father.



so what age does it give for William?




I do not know whether he would have had to produce a birth certificate when he joined the merchant navy. It is entirely possible that he did not

(16, Long St., Salford. (given as Last place of Abode for William Whitham 1935, on below)

Deaths at sea, 1781-1968 Transcription (Find My Past)


(adding again, an address above, if it 'rings any bells' with anything!)

Chris :)

edits

(have often seen people asking for help on families in local newspapers, sometimes names can jog a memory with a local!)

What address is given on the marriage cert? What name was Fred known by - Dore or Whitham?

Maybe this family in 1901???

The original looks more like Dore or Dors.

Karl is German for Charles

Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Ordsall in Salford St Clement
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England


View image
Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration District: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3735
Folio: 97
Page Number: 4
Household schedule number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Karl Doris 33 - ship's fireman - Germany foreign subject
Sarah A Doris 31
Karl Doris 2
William Doris 11 months
Harry Thorpe 26
Catherine Thorpe 29
William Thorpe 5
John Thorpe 2
Elizabeth Whittingham 33
Robert Whittingham 10
Florence Whittingham 1

.???

Name: Karl Dofs
Registration Year: 1898
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 173


Name: William Dofs
Registration Year: 1900
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 175

(to go with above finds)

Marriage: 12 May 1898 St Clement, Salford, Lancashire, England
Karl Doss - 30 Fireman Bachelor of 247 Robert Hall Street
Sarah Ann Whittingham - 28 Spinster of 247 Robert Hall Street
Groom's Father: William Doss, Farmer
Bride's Father: William Whittingham, Velvet Finisher
Witness: John Whittingham; Catherine Thorpe, (X)
Married by Banns by: Walter Hudson
Register: Marriages 1898 - 1907, Page 3, Entry 6
Source: LDS Film 1786424


Marriages Mar 1895 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Thorpe Harry Salford 8d 150
Whittingham Catherine Salford 8d 150


Baptism: 16 May 1900 Stowell Memorial, Salford, Lancashire, England
William Doss - [Child] of Karl Doss & Sarah Ann
Abode: 247 Robert Hall St.
Occupation: Fireman
Baptised by: F.W. Fairhurst
Register: Baptisms 1898 - 1905, Page 82, Entry 656
Source: LDS Film 2357994


Baptism: 31 Aug 1898 Stowell Memorial, Salford, Lancashire, England
Karl Doss - [Child] of Karl Doss & Sarah Ann
Abode: 247 Robert Hall St.
Occupation: Ship Fireman
Baptised by: F.W. Fairhurst
Register: Baptisms 1898 - 1905, Page 24, Entry 187
Source: LDS Film 2357994

Chris :)

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html


Marriage: 24 Dec 1923 St Ignatius, Ordsall, Lancashire, England
Frederick George Dores - 22, Cable Worker, Bachelor, 169 Over Regent Rd.
Louisa Plevin - 21, Cable Worker, Spinster, 92 Tatton St.
Groom's Father: Charles Dores, (deceased), Ship Fireman
Bride's Father: Charles Plevin, (deceased), Warehouseman
Witness: Henry Clarke; Letitia Maron
Married by Banns by: R.A.E. Bell M.A. (Rector)
Register: Marriages 1920 - 1930, Page 46, Entry 91
Source: Manchester Central Library


Births Dec 1901 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
DOHS Frederick George Salford 8d 190


Baptism: 18 Dec 1901 Stowell Memorial, Salford, Lancashire, England
Frederick George Dohs - [Child] of Carl Dohs & Sarah Ann
Abode: 247 Robert Hall St.
Occupation: Ship Stoker
Baptised by: W.B. Irving
Register: Baptisms 1898 - 1905, Page 136, Entry 1088
Source: LDS Film 2357994

I wonder if this is uncle Fred, in Swinton ??

1911 England Census

Relation to Head: Patient
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Swinton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Barton upon Irwell
Registration District Number: 463
Sub-registration district: Worsley
ED, institution, or vessel: 24-25
Piece: 23583
Household Members:


Frederick Doris 5 - patient

Edit: Just noticed Chris has already found him. Can't be this one

If we have the right family here, it looks as though the name Whitham was made up from the mother's maiden name of Whitingham

The family are under the name of Dohs on the 1911.

Very helpfully the housekeeper has included the widowed father Carl, although he was away at the time. Also daughter, Minnie, who was in hospital. Plus she has named daughter, Clara, although she had died.

Deaths Mar 1910 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Dohs Sarah Ann 40 Salford 8d 11


Deaths Dec 1907 (>99%)
------------------------------------------
DOHS Clara 4 Salford 8d 193


Births Sep 1903 (>99%)
----------------------------------------
Dohs Clara Salford 8d 148


Births Mar 1909 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------
Dohs Minnie Salford 8d 168


Deaths Sep 1925 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
Dohs Minnie 16 Salford 8d 257


Baptism: 8 Jul 1903 Stowell Memorial, Salford, Lancashire, England
Clara Dohs - [Child] of Karl Dohs & Sarah Ann
Abode: 28 Lynton St.
Occupation: Fireman
Baptised by: W.B. Irving
Register: Baptisms 1898 - 1905, Page 202, Entry 1614
Source: LDS Film 2357994


Baptism: 1 Mar 1905 Stowell Memorial, Salford, Lancashire, England
Sarah Dohs - [Child] of Karl Dohs & Sarah Ann
Abode: 28 Linton Street
Occupation: Fireman
Baptised by: Arthur Botterill
Register: Baptisms 1898 - 1905, Page 269, Entry 2152
Source: LDS Film 2357994


Baptism: 10 Feb 1909 St Clement, Salford, Lancashire, England
Minnie Dohs - [Child] of Karl Dohs & Sarah Ann
Born: 15 Jan 1909
Abode: 32 King William St.
Occupation: Stoker
Baptised by: F Challenor
Register: Baptisms 1903 - 1910, Entry 2202
Source: LDS Film 1786423

Chris :)


1911 (Find my Past, reference)
Blanche Conybere Housekeeper Single Female 30 1881 Somersetshire Somerset Houskeeper
Carl Dohs Son Single Male 13 1898 Lanc Salford School
William Dohs Son - Male 12 1899 Lanc Salford School
Frederick Dohs Son - Male 10 1901 Lanc Salford School
Sarah Dohs Daughter - Female 7 1904 Lanc Salford School
(Carl Dohs away. Head. Widowed. Fireman. Born in Germany)
Address 25 New Park Road Salford
Parish Salford
County Lancashire
Census reference RG14PN24058 RG78PN1384 RD465 SD4 ED15 SN12

(well, good ol' Blanche, lol)

If family fits?...


edits (below, possibly Minnie)

1911
First name(s) Minnie
Last name Dawes
Relationship to household head Patient
Gender Female
Age 2
Birth year 1909
Birth place Nk
Address Hope Pendelton Salford
Parish Pendleton
County Lancashire
Registration district Salford
Census reference RG14PN23975 RD465 SD1 ED44 SN9999

I think it looks very promising that we have the right family

Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns,
Name: Frederick George Dores
Birth Year: abt 1901
Age: 22
Marriage Date: 24 Dec 1923
Parish: Salford, St Ignatius
Parish as it Appears: Salford, St Ignatius
Father's Name: Charles Dores - deceased - ship's fireman
Spouse's Name: Louisa Plevin
Spouse's Father's Name: Charles Plevin
Reference Number: GB127.L294/1/2/3