Genealogy Chat

I would like to thank you all for the help you gave I hope to carry on searching for either Ellen Gray or Thomas Johnstone in the hope of finding a link to my father.

I can't even find a birth to match Thomas Johnstone (reported Hackney 1911)

and it's that time of day when my eyes and my brain start to shut down ............ :-)

Thanks JoonieClonnie

I missed the Thomas Johnstone 1891 I have found several marriages which could be him and have found Thomas on the London electoral register living in the area, certainly Tottenham is near enough for Ellen and him to have met. I cannot see him on the Census for 1901 and perhaps 1891 if he was born early in the year perhaps you have better eye sight, I just wondered if I could find their families both living near each other on a Census There are two deaths for Thomas both far away but people do travel in their life time.

there is one Dunbar in the vicinity in 1911 ... a few blocks north of the Chase Side location I think when I checked on google maps the other day

Name: James Dunbar
Age in 1911: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Son
Birth Place: Enfield, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Enfield
County/Island: Middlesex
Street address: 2 New Road, Ponders End
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Electrical Engineer
Registration district: Edmonton
Registration District Number: 132
Sub-registration district: Enfield

Peter Dunbar 63 mechanical engineer born Scotland
Jane Dunbar 63 born Scotland
James Dunbar 33


but the closest useful Johnstones are a considerable distance away, although there is a Thomas

Name: Thomas Johnstone
Age in 1911: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Relation to Head: Son
Birth Place: Hackney, London, England
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Skindresser

Civil Parish: Tottenham
County/Island: Middlesex
Street address: 8 St James Place, Church Road, Lower Tottenham
Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: East Tottenham

Hugh Johnstone 48 skindresser, born Scotland
Amelia Johnstone 40
Thomas Johnstone 20
William Johnstone 19 electrical engineer
Emily Johnstone 18
Albert Johnstone 16
Hugh Johnstone 14
Henry Johnstone 3


I say this hesitantly but ... possibly for one reason or another Ellen was not positive of paternity ...

Thank you so much for your help I have just spent a time looking for a Johnstone about the age and/or one with the Christine name of Thomas without luck, then the 1901 Census for Ellen Gray but there are so many.

What is strange is that I have never found a Christening for my father, he was quite religious and always went to Church (St Andrews Enfield) I have been to the LMA in London and also to Enfield but could not find any evidence.

The other difficulty is that the house he was living in during the war was badly damaged by a bomb landing nearby so I presume any certificates were lost as they had to find another address quickly.

If only my mother had spoke about him maybe a lot of this searching would be unnecessary

I agree Nellie is a candidate worth considering, definitely still in the right geographic area ... and who knows, a meddling registrar or attendant at the birth (did Catherine O'Connor register the birth?) might have decided that a Nellie was really an Ellen

MKE Gray's young age, on the other hand, could be a reason why a baby was given up for adoption :-)

(young women had babies in those days too ... and were also at least as vulnerable to sexual assault and exploitation as they are now ... for example my gr-grmother wasn't a young teenager, but we have always understood that her pregnancy by the grown son of the household where she was a servant was not a result of choice)


Lesley if you could trace descendants of either or both women and get their cooperation, an autosomal ('family finder' type) DNA test could establish or rule out a relationship ...

I've noted MKE's children I think; Nellie had one child

(YDNA testing would not work as it follows the male line ... but it might find a connection to your father's father ... since your father is deceased that would depend on him having had a son who could test.
Mitochondrial DNA testing would also not work as your father would have inherited his mother's, but did not pass it on to his child/ren.)

you would be testing yourself as a grandchild of Ellen and hoping to find another grandchild who would test, your two parents being suspected half-siblings as children of the same Ellen Gray

several people at this site have Nellie Gray 1889 Islington in their trees, and since there was no such birth, I suspect that is the Nellie in question with the age simply taken from a census

Mary Kate Ellen Gray's birth record is Jan-Mar 1896, Hackney 1b 525. Her baptism (parents Arthur James and Emma Kate Gray) was on 26 Feb 1896 at All Saints, Clapton Park. Her father was a confectioner. As noted earlier she married George W Berry Oct-Dec 1924, Edmonton 3a 998. Mary Kate E Berry (born 28 Dec 1895) died Jan-Mar 1976, Enfield 12 0770. On the face of it, if Thomas Dunbar Johnstone Gray was her son he would have to have been conceived on, or just before, her sixteenth birthday.

There was another possible candidate in the Edmonton Registration District in 1911. This was Nellie Gray, also a confectionary packer, 22, appearing as daughter of Rose in 1911. Going back through the Censuses and birth records, she was born Apr-Jun 1888, Islington 1b 337. The records of St Mary, Islington, show she was born 17 May 1888 and baptised 12 Aug 1888, parents Robert and Rose Gray. She married Alfred Edward Fellowes 2 Aug 1920 at St Ann, Tottenham (Jul-Sep 1920, Edmonton 3a 1570). The existence of Lydia Gray as a witness confirms this as the correct marriage (Lydia was her 16-year-old sister in 1911). Nellie Fellows died Jan-Mar 1968, aged 79, Haringey 5b 1065. Although Nellie was her actual name, it was also often used as a nickname for Ellen, so I wouldn't rule her out without checking for other evidence, in view of the very young age of Mary Kate Ellen Gray.

Stan

Gosh you members are so wonderful all this work, I might add that I had spent ages looking but not found details of Nurse Connor, definitely sounds she is the one, I have traced all Gladys they were kept of who she placed for adoption.

I think I will now try and investigate the Mary Kate Ellen Gray I had always thought she came from a long way away to give birth perhaps she did not.

I have been to Enfield and have a picture of 83 Chase Side (only a very small cottage) and even looked at the electoral registers for the following yeasr no one is registered there then unfortunately because of the war after 1914 there are none to 1918.

I wonder


Name: Mary Kate Ellen Gray
Age in 1911: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation to Head: Daughter
Birth Place: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Edmonton
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: 35 St Mary's Road, Lower Edmonton
Marital Status: Single
>> Occupation: Confectionery Packer
Registration district: Edmonton
Registration District Number: 132
Sub-registration district: Edmonton
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Household schedule number: 379
Piece: 7376

Arthur James Gray 49
Emma Kate Gray 41
Alice Rebbeca Gray 16
Mary Kate Ellen Gray 15
Henry George Arthur Gray 13


this seems to be in Enfield ... the addresses in the census book that I can find today are Tramway Avenue and Hertford Road, which intersect ... oh here we are on google maps, St Mary's Road is there after all

it is right by Jubilee Park in Enfield ... about 2 miles SE of Chase Side ...


Births Mar 1896
Gray Mary Kate E Hackney 1b 525

Mary Kate Ellen Gray married only in 1924 when she was about 27 and had 3 children, the first named Ellen ... the youngest has a distinctive name and is in two trees here

Marriages Dec 1924
Berry George W Gray Edmonton 3a 998
Gray Mary K E Berry Edmonton 3a 998


just someone to think about


edit

I imagine you have investigated Chase Side at the time of the 1911 census?

(83 is now a care home)

the census shows a Sisters of Charity home for children, the isolation hospital and the workhouse, in the census book I looked through, in Chase Side (no specific addresses given)

would it probably have had a maternity facility as well?


Catherine Connor in 1911 from Ancestry

Name: Catherine Cannor
Age in 1911: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation to Head: General Sick Nurse (Nurse)
Birth Place: London, England
Civil Parish: Enfield
County/Island: Middlesex
Street address: 34 Gordon Hill, Enfield
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: General Sick Nurse
Registration district: Edmonton
Registration District Number: 132
Sub-registration district: Enfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 11

Jabez Thurston 71
Martha Thurston 71
Elizabeth Dixon 76
Catherine Cannor 49

that address is only a few blocks (north) from 83 Chase Side, the two streets intersect


also for info, Gladys Dunbar in 1911 living with her mother

Name: Gladys Dunbar
Age in 1911: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Daughter
Birth Place: Croydon, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Enfield
County/Island: Middlesex
Street address: Queenswood, 9 The Ridgeway Road, Enfield
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Medical Practitioner
Registration district: Edmonton
Registration District Number: 132
Sub-registration district: Enfield

a few blocks west of Catherine Connor's address, she was working "at home"

hi Lesley, was your father 'adopted' at birth?


just wanted to note that there is every likelihood that one of his middle names, and especially the second one I would say, Johnstone, is his father's name. This was extremely common (I have it in my family, my grandmother's older half-sister). It's too bad that when mothers did that, they didn't pass on the actual name too! same story in my family ...

it's quite possible that his father shared his given name, but another common pattern was for the child in that circumstance to have the mother's father's name

I just find it strange that Catherine Connor isn't on the 1911 census for the area but then again maybe she was an absentee landlady and lived in a different part of the country but retained her voting rights as she owned the property.

I think the Catherine Connor was a nurse, I spoke to someone who was an expert on the area and he said sometimes midwives rented a property where unmarried mothers could come and give birth to their child, really I don't think I will ever know the truth and maybe my parents did not know much either as not much was discussed with children then.

I see your tree on Ancestry. I am not sure that Catherine Connor would necessary have been living at the address your Thomas was born. Could she have been the owner of the property and that would be why she was on the E R for that address? The property may have been let out?

Only Confectioner,s assistant which is a usual occupation

Did it give an occupation for Ellen please?

Hi everyone, thanks for you help which I did not expect. My father Thomas Gray born 1912 to an Ellen Gray no age of her or father mentioned, died whenI was a child. mother would not discuss him, managed to find " adopted" parents nothing in writing
His other names were Johnstone and Dunbar, at the time there was a Dr Gladys Dunbar qualified 1908 Who may have help with adoption Johnstone may have been father's name, nothing further known

I can see up to 13 Huntingdon Terrace in 1911, but no sign of 15.

Some women were on the electoral roll long before 1918. It was general elections they could not vote in. There werte also property requirements to be fulfilled before being on the roll.

No problem MC.

I think it unlikely that the baby's Mum would be on the ERs anyway. Not impossible, just unlikely.

It seems highly possible from the census above that the younger Ellen Gray being sought is indeed connected. On the 1891 census she's recorded as Amelia so we can surmise her full name was Ellen Amelia

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Featherstone Street, St Luke, Holborn, London, England

Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Gray Head Married Male 38 1853 Traveller Hawker Scotland
Ellen Gray Wife Married Female 35 1856 - Birmingham, Warwickshire
Amelia Gray Daughter - Female 7 1884 - Birmingham, Warwickshire
Marian Gray Daughter - Female 1 1890 - Middlesex, England

Oops! Should have refreshed the screen before posting - does seem to rule her out.