Genealogy Chat

One other thing which may be of interest, my father worked as a footman at Glamis Castle where the Queen Mother lived as Lady Bowes-Lyon when she was a young girl.
She would be about 8 at that time.
Would be interesting to find records of that time.

more of a switch than my grandfather did for sure :-) he just went from army to army ...

JHMacD was a motor mechanic, would everybody have needed them maybe??

Hmmmm.... could an army soldier transfer to the Royal Marine Engineers? I guess stranger things can happen in war! ;-)

but I found it at the London Gazette

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/notice?text=john%20henderson%20macdonald

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30586/page/3478
London Gazette 19 March 1918 page 478

R.M. Engineers
The undermentioned to be temp. 2nd Lieut.:--
John Henderson Macdonald
4th March 1918

so it seems my guess about wartime commission was on the mark

but whether this is the right man is an open question

R.M. Engineers, could have transferred units during the war?

my grandfather did that too and received his commission in his new regiment :-)

I wonder about the John Henderson MacDonald who was a lieutenant at the end of the war ... my grandfather was promoted to 2nd lieutenant shortly before the end of the war as a 'battlefield commission' (I suspect not actually 'battlefield'), could something like that have happened?

I tried searching at the link to Forces War Records that MarieCeleste gave in shortened URL form above for John Henderson MacDonald, to see what info it gave on a free search, but I get only a string of useless garble in return ...

I'm sure you're right MarieCeleste. Having never used the site I can't speak from experience but I'm certainly aware of a number of sites that follow that practice.

Paul, I'll reiterate what I said above - Forces War Records do not have any records that can't be found on other sites (in fact they don't hold any actual records per se), their Canadian records are particularly inferior to what can be found on the links already given.

Thanks MarieCeleste. However, I do think Forces War Records might be worth looking at.... there's a John Henderson MacDonald but he was a Lieutenant at the end of the war so it's not likely to be him. There are lots of JH Macdonalds but many of them are Royal Navy so they can be taken out of the mix.

I do have a sub to Forces War Records (won't renew - it's rubbish)

They don't have any actual records, they just collate (and often inaccurately) information that is often free elsewhere, or is available on other more reasonably priced sites.

In the case of the soldier that Paul has referenced, it's actually John Henry McDonald, who was born Waterford, Ontario (although FWR don't have his full name or any info about him, that comes from Soldiers of WW1 on the bac-lac links already given).

May I politely suggest that long URLs can be shortened on a site such as goo.gl so that they don't stretch the page? It turns that very long link above into something more manageable, like this

http://goo.gl/xh1hox

I see mgnv disagrees with me but the reason I made the suggestion to start by narrowing down the units is because John Macdonald is such a common name that trawling through attestation papers could be a herculean task. At least this way you can narrow down the numbers of John Macdonalds.

Joonie - right sorry abt that . My page has a link to yours, but also has a link explaining how to get a copy of the service file if you can't wait a year for the freebie.
I meant to add this note to my post, but I was also watching La Vuelta, so I wasn't really on top of things.

You can search using d.o.b. on Ancestry, but you need the right sub to get details. I searched for d.o.b.=22/8/1882 and for some reason, I didn't get Joonie's guy - presumably a stuff up by Ancestry. I did get another guy:

http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc012/532205a.gif

Although I don't have a suitable Ancestry sub, I can tell who they're referring to, but it's really too geeky for me to post. [You've seen my posts on here, and can form some opinion on what I might consider too geeky to post]

This guy was a conscript, so there's only 1 page.
Some officers also had just one page, e.g.,
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/487161a.gif
but not all:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/487148a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/well2/237315a.gif
Nursing Sisters were officers in the CEF - look up Gladys Wake - her digized service file is online - it's to the right of the attestation papers
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=9989-48
[Just so you know where to look - if someone had purchased your John's service file, and took an electronic version (saving postage) then the digitized file would subsequently be placed online]

Take Joonie's guy:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc012/532250a.gif
to get his second page just edit that URL & change the final a into b to get the URL for the 2nd page:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc012/532250b.gif

actually mgnv I posted it ahead of you, the direct link to the search page :-)

(is it just me or are those pages seriously messing up? the header coming out as a long list of links ...)

here is the first random plain 'John Mcdonald' in the search results for that name

MCDONALD, JOHN >> 22/08/1882 100887 RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 6736 - 1

http://tinyurl.com/prz4yql
(sorry, I wasn't aware some people's browsers still failed to wrap long URLs)

okay great the image itself won't load for me, but if that happens you can copy the 'image location' from that page and use it open it, that one is

http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc012/532250a.gif

(you can also click for page 2 which is the back of the form, showing the physical exam info)

and Susan you can see that as an example of the kind of info that is included in those records, that mgnv describes

yes, actual date of birth could help considerably in trawling those many records

you can't use it as a search term but as you see above it is shown in the results lists

I disagree with Paul - I think the best route is to get hold of his attestation papers, and the needed first step for this is to know his exact d.o.b. Although enlistees sometimes lied abt their age, they rarely lied abt their b'day, just their y.o.b.. The attestation papers will list the name & addy of his n.o.k. (Florence might be listed as an amendment, but otherwise it's likely to be a parent or some other relle, possibly one in the UK). The papers also list previous military experience, so if he'd had 5 y with the Shropshire militia, or 5 y with the Hamilton & Wentworth militia one could infer difft things abt how long he;d been in Canada. The papers also give the date and place of his enlistment, and his service # (which doesn't change in the CEF), and also indicates which area he was recruited in and which battalion he was initially assigned to, although some, like the 23rd & 30th bns that Paul noted (and the 32nd that Paul omitted) were just reinforcment/ replacement bns, and his actual service would have been in some other unit.

The necessary search URL was the first thing I posted on this thread.

I would start by contacting

http://navigating-history.net/folkestone/

and ask them which units were at Dibgate camp on the day of your father's wedding.

Incidentally it's Shorncliffe not Thorncliffe

you'll find this interesting

http://www.stepshort.co.uk/downloads/Canadians.pdf

have you done as suggested and searched through the attestation papers for all the John Mc/Macdonalds who enrolled in the CEF?

if he did enrol in Canada, his record is virtually certainly there

so the only thing to do is look for it

however is it possible he joined the Canadians in England? for instance if they needed motor mechanics ... I don't know whether this was something that occurred or was common

Thank you.
How can I find out if my father was in those units?
I feel he must have gone to work in Canada before the war started. He married his first wife Florence Walton 21 July 1915. John Macdonald and Florence Francizs Walton.
He 25 years, she 26 years.
Marriage certificate says
private 2nd canadian contingent, motor mechanic, Dibgate Camp, Thorncliffe
Son of Robert Macdonald, estate agent
She 42 Severn street, Castlefields, Shrewsbury, daughter of Henry Makepeace Walton,gasfitter
Church of our Lady of Helptanstall, Shrewsbury.
My ather worked as a valet at Glamis Castle in Sco,tland when the Queen Mother was Lady Bowes Lyon. He would have been in his early teens.

I think I can help a bit here with this lengthy reply. Stick with me and I think I can narrow down your options.

There is no army unit called a contingent, so this might send you off on a wild goose chase. It's just a group of soldiers with no formal structure.

When Great Britain accepted Canada's offer to send an infantry division on Aug 06 1914, it was expected that it would be comprised of some of the 60,000 members of the Canadian militia. Instead Colonel Sam Hughes, Minister of Militia and Defence 1911-1916 decided to organize volunteers into new consecutively-numbered battalions.

The First Contingent of the Canadian Expeditionary Force sailed on Oct 03 1914, was comprised of the 1st to 17th battalions plus the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. By the end of the war there would be two hundred and sixty numbered battalions in existence.

Shortly after the First Contingent left for England, the government of Canada authorised the recruiting of a second contingent. During the winter of 1914-1915 the units composing this new force were mobilized and trained. In the spring of 1915 the Second Contingent sailed for England. The summer of 1915 was spent in training at Shorncliffe on the coast of Kent and in September they left for the front as the Second Canadian Division under the command of a Canadian officer, Major-General Richard Turner. The 23rd and 30th Battalions remained behind in England as reserves.

•18th Infantry Battalion: Western Ontario
•19th Infantry Battalion:
•20th Infantry Battalion: 1st Central Ontario Regiment
•21st Infantry Battalion:
•22nd Infantry Battalion: Canadiens Francais
•23rd Infantry Battalion: Montreal Battalion
•24th Infantry Battalion: Victoria Rifles
•25th Infantry Battalion: Nova Scotia
•26th Infantry Battalion: New Brunswick Battalion
•27th Infantry Battalion: City Of Winnipeg Regiment
•28th Infantry Battalion: North West Battalion
•29th Infantry Battalion: Vancouver Battalion / Tobin's Tigers
•30th Infantry Battalion: British Columbia
•31st Infantry Battalion: Alberta Overseas Battalion
•32nd Infantry Battalion: Manitoba and Saskatchewan

So your ancestor would have been in one of these 15 battalions. In WW1, battalion organisation was as follows:

•One infantry battalion of approximately 1000 officers and men = 4 companies
•One company = 4 platoons
•One platoon = 4 sections .

Many of these men were of British origin. The parentage of the soldiers was especially important given that during the First World War, Canadian soldiers were entrusted with defending Great Britain against its enemies.

For instance, I see that when a later battalion, the 49th, landed at Plymouth, on 12 June 1915, three quarters of the 1,010 officers and men were British-born; most of the rest had been born in Canada, with a handful of Americans and others making up the rest. Historians have often remarked on the predominance of recent British immigrants in the early contingents of the CEF. While the 49th was clearly no exception to this generalization, the Britishness of the original unit should not be exaggerated. Although most members of the 49th were happy to stress their English, Irish, or Scottish roots, a good many of those listed as British-born could have come to Canada as children.

so much information, so little time......this is great gives me lots to follow up.
I actually have my fathers birth certificate, all in little pieces, will look again at it. Took it upon myself to sellotape it years ago anfd that hasnt helped.
Florence is a mystery because I have her born 1889 in Preston, Lancs and is in 1911 census still with her family as a ladys maid and named then as Florence Fanny. but cant find a record of her birth ie registered.
I was told years ago that she had married an MP for Shrewsbury. whether true or not dont know. I only found out that my father had been married before my mother when I was in my teens.

Susan - Re "how do I delete threads which are not relevent, ie not my relative?"

First - a bit of terminology - a thread is a collection of related posts.
As your initial post started the thread, you're its owner. However, you don't own any posts made by others, and you can't change them, even if they're wrong or irrelevant - only their owners can change them (well, if they were obscene or violated the rules in some other way, you could click on the report button in the posts header, and GR can remove or edit the reported post - they never edit, just remove after a review).

Posts you own have 2 other options in their header, viz edit & delete, which you can exercise.

WARNING - if you delete your very first post (i.e., the one that started the thread), then the whole thread gets deleted. One shouldn't do this - it annoys the other posters on your thread that all the work they put into their answers is gone, and even if you think you've done with the thread, but a couple of years down the road, you have another query on the same guy, then making a fresh post on the thread sort of reactivates it, and posters don't have to do all the background lookups again, if they're already on this thread. Also, if the thread's still around, anyone can google John Henderson MacDonald, and see the thread.


If you edit the very first post, you can also edit the thread's title.