Genealogy Chat

Thanks for getting back to me again Shirley. Pity about the manifest, but from what you say it isn't really necessary now.

Thanks for looking for the outward journey too - I seem to have drawn a blank there as well. Still, I had lost sight of Florence until a few days ago.

I did look for the outward journey but didnt find them

not seeing them on the Ellis Island incoming records either

Its on Ancestry Owen too large to download though I,m afraid

it doesnt give an address from Canada or a proposed in address in the UK its just the ships manifest listing of passengers that have been transcribed into the format I posted

I guess that should read 1901 census and 1903. Sorry!

Shirley was kind enough to track down how Florence and Rosina came back from Canada on the Lake Champlain in late 1903. Can anyone advise me how to find the ship's manifest or a passenger list to look at please?

Also, how do I look for the ship that carried them to Canada - sometime between the 1911 census and August 1903?

Once again, any help and ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Thank you Sylvia. I suspect this is a different Payne, but we'll see.

here is that 1911 Census with Frederick Payne ................. do the details of palce of birth fit what you know .........

1911 Census

Name: Frederick Payne
Age in 1911: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bristol, Gloucestershire
Civil Parish: Bristol
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street address: 9 Weston Street, Barton Hill, Bristol
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Carter General
Registration district: Bristol
Registration District Number: 319
Sub-registration district: St Philip and St Jacob
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Household schedule number: 202

Susan Shellard 51 Head
Albert Shellard 24
Walter Shellard 21
Frederick Shellard 18
Florrie Shellard 16
Frederick Payne 39



Susan Shellard is actually the head, Albert is her son

Not seeing an incoming record for him

There is one other thing I thought might be a red herring Shirley.

In the 1911 census we found a "Boarder" on schedule 202 in 9 Weston Street, Barton Hill, Bristol (Headed by Alfred Shellard) called Frederick Payne, aged 39 and married - but no wife present. He may well be no relation, or a cousin or something.

We assumed he was a different Payne, but of course if he had returned from Canada between 1903 and 1911 .....

Looking on FreeBMD there are several deaths for children from 2003 onwards for Plymouth .could be costly though buying certs to see who the father was on the cert .

Children's death certs named them as son or daughter of and the fathers name

That makes sense Shirley. I was a bit concerned about the 13 years as 1905 till her death is only 10 yrs and she was married to Payne from 1897 until at least 1903, but your logic fits nicely.

I wish we could track down what James (or Frederick if he was using that name) got up to in Canada, but I'm not having any luck with that.

I wonder if he was just manipulating the info as he called Rosie his daughter and listed her as Donovan

As she was 11 I think he said 13 years to cover so she didn't look illegitimate.

It's can't be as they married in 1905 and Florence was still married to james in 1901

"Says married 13 years 2 children born 1 had died".
Rosie was Donovan's step daughter. Do you think from this that Florence and Donovan had another child who survived? If so there might be another branch to Florence's family, different from the one we know. (My wife is the daughter of Mabel Bennett, daughter of Rosina.)

Thank you for all your help with this, Shirley.

From a newspaper article:
Florence said she received a message saying her first husband James/Frederick was dead and so claimed she was a widow at the Registery Office in Plymouth in 1905.
By 1913 Donovan was claiming her first husband had still been alive in 1905, but we have no proof either way. He may have died out there in 1903/4, stayed there much longer or caught a ship back to England.
For interest: Florence and her daughter did a "four months tramp" with no money to get back from Liverpool to Bath in 1912, having expected to meet Donovan in Liverpool as he was working on the ships then. :-S

Looks like her

Deaths Jun 1915
Donovan Florence J 40 Bristol 6a 201

Looks like Rosina is being called Rosie

View image
1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
3 Home Park Egg Buckland Near Plymouth, Egg Buckland, Devon, England

Print household transcription Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
William Donovan Head Married Male 36 1875 South Duniden New Zealand Farm Labourer
Florence Donovan Wife Married Female 35 1876 Wellow Nr Bath Somerset -
Rosie Donovan Daughter - Female 11 1900 Bristol Gloucestershire -
Lester Grainger Nephew - Male 4 1907 Calne Wiltshire -


Says married 13 years 2 children born 1 had died

She is down as wife not widow on the ships manifest of 1903,

Maybe worth getting that 1905,marriage cert to see what she gives as her marital status

Yes that would fit as you have 42 days. Ie 6 weeks to reg a birth

My dad was born 28th dec 1907 and his birth was reg late jan 1908 so his GRO ref is mar qtr 1908 . His birth shows correctly on his cert

Yes, Joe Bennett and Rosina had a daughter Mabel, although we thought her birthday was Dec 22nd 1921. Does that fit?

You are spot on Shirley - Joe Bennett is where we pick up the story again.

What happened to James (sometimes called Frederick?) is still a mystery, and we think Florence may have subsequently married again to a Daniel William Donovan in Plymouth in 1905, but there's some doubt as to whether James was actually dead.