Genealogy Chat

OOH its so intriguing please let us know what the certs say when you get them.

Am all of a curiosity now but ready to say AHH so thats why :-D

yea im curious now as well......

I hope the answer will be in the post tomorrow. GRO estimated the dispatch date as 27th.

Nothing in today's post. :-(

Good news and bad news, one certificate arrived today. It was the second one, a register office marriage and they were bachelor and spinster.

I'll post the details later this evening.

The certificate is in my keepsafe but should be viewable by anyone. Search for Pantall, the title is Pantall 41. It is stored as a Document or certificate. When the other comes I will put it in Pantall 37.
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1941 Marriage solemnized at THE REGISTER OFFICE in the District of BIRMINGHAM in the COUNTY BOROUGH OF BIRMINGHAM

No 156
9th December 1941

Purser Pantall
47 years
Bachelor
Bank Cashier
107 Trafalgar Road, Moseley,
Father: George Pantall (deceased) Farmer

Irene Olive Beatrice Roberts
47 years
Spinster
Bank Clerk
Flat 1, 107 Trafalgar Road, Moseley
Father George Augustus Roberts (deceased) Journalist

Married in the REGISTER OFFICE by Licence before me W S Hanson Registrar

W F Horn Supt Registrar.

In the Presence of us D H Poynter Roberts, A H Tennison
---

The 1937 one came today. The information is as follows:
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1937 Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church in the Parish of St Mary Magdalene, Munster Square in the County of London (St Pancras)

No.54
October 10th 1937

Purser Pantall
age 42
Bachelor,
Bank Official
4 Martindale, East Sheen, SW14
Father George Pantall (deceased) no occupation given

Irene Olive Beatrice Roberts
age 43
Spinster
Typist
The White House, Flat 135, Regents Park, NW1
Father George Augustus Roberts (deceased) no occupation given

Married in the Parish Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of England after banns by me E U Sherwin-White

In the presence of us Florence Anne Thatcher, Marjorie Clare Thatcher

---

So as far as I can see there is no clue as to why they married again.

How strange they married in a church in London and then again in the registry office in Birmingham

He wasn't in the forces so that's not why ,but in any case the first marriage was pre war

How very odd !!

It is my understanding ( I may be wrong) that if a Catholic person were to marry in a protestant church they would not be considered as legally married. So if that is the case then maybe due to pressure from family , they then had the registry wedding to legalize the union and keep the peace as they say.

Dont think its that Margaret,being legally married wouldn't come into it. In those days catholic priests couldn't marry you anyway you had to have the registrar come to the church and marry you in the vestry after the church services, We married in 1957 and still had to do it that way .
The Catholic Church may not recognize a C of E marriage but it was still a legal marriage as C of E priests are legal registrars

The Catholic Church didn't recognize Registry office marriages either if one of the party were Catholic
:-)

MY GRANDPARENTS MARRIED THREE TIMES IN 1919,
FIRST REG OFFICE,
2 ND BLESSED IN CHURCH OF ENGLAND
3 RD BLESSED IN CATHOLIC CHURCH,

ALSO FOR SOME REASON EACH CHILD WAS BAPTISED
IN ALTERNATE RELIGION.

If the marriage was declared void because the correct procedure had not been followed, would the marriage index in the GRO be altered to delete the first marriage?

Sorry, this does not answer your question but we are interested in your findings.

Google searches throw up various reasons and discussions on couples marrying twice, often with the decision that it is impossible to tell.

A register office followed by a church had a baby born in-between - but yours was the other way round (Church followed by register)

This
' The couple possibly thought that there was something wrong with the
first marriage so did it again. The actual reasons are by now mere
speculation in the absence of any supporting detail. Had there been an
error in the process of the marriage then it would more likely have
been voidable (i.e. it subsisted unless either party took action to
annul it) rather than void (never a valid marriage).'

'The most likely circumstances that come to mind for a second marriage
actually being required is that the first was void for a non-permanent
reason such as a divorce procedure not being completed or either of
the parties discovered later that they weren't as old as they thought
they were.' (Ages for your marriage are the same in both, so not applicable)

One or other may have been married before, but kept it very quiet, as they both have had plenty of time to fit in previous marriages, and then claimed they were single. (Though their names make that extremely unlikely)

Have you considered approaching the GRO for their thoughts on the reasons?

Google search about deleting marriages gives various scenarios as to what actually should and does happen.

'No entry, once made, is ever deleted from the registers.'

But as you managed to get both marriage certificates then much of the discussions on other boards would not apply to your case.

Added:
There is someone (from a google search) asking if they need to get divorced twice if they have married twice. They mean that they married twice,the same people, 1 year apart. No reasons given as to why they married twice, they just want to know if they have to make sure they are properly divorced. This was in America.

Thank you patchem for those thoughts.

I did think that perhaps the certificate for the first marriage would not be issued when it did not arrive with the other one. So I was surprised when it did.

I looked at a couple of 1937 Q4 marriages on the adjacent pages to see if there were any other remarriages, but there didn't appear to be. I'll have another more extensive look later.

It could, I suppose, simply be a clerical error that the original certificate was not withdrawn.

Perhaps it would be worth contacting the GRO as you suggest.

I slightly edited the last few lines of the register office marriage details.

Witness D H Poynter Roberts is a brother of the bride.

I haven't yet found any family connection with the other witnesses.

Daft suggestion - might the original certificate have been lost during the war? Rather than try to apply for a copy, they might have decided to go through the ceremony again.

http://bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900 maps The Blitz bombing 7th October 1940 to 6th June 1941

There was also heavy bombing in Birmingham, if that's where they were living at the time

I think, rather than contacting the GRO, it might be worth contacting the Register Offices where both the marriages are recorded. Possibly any change to the original register may not have reached the GRO.