Genealogy Chat

Jennifer
Welcome to Genes and the boards.
I have read through the thread and can see how it might read and hence be upsetting. But I think they may have just have been putting forward a theory as to why the name spy have been changed.

It is unlikely that Elizabeth will see your post but she IS still a member of genes. If you click on her name you can send her a pm and if she has kept her email address she will be notified. No one gets notified if a new post is added.

Names

My Grandfather is Richard John Fieldhouse Roberts. Selina was his Mother not his Wife. As for Flip and Erika H your comments about draft dodging, criminality, running from debtors & desertion are wrong. My family find them extremely distressing. I actually bought a subscription so that I could respond to you. We have the family military records and medals. Those statements are untrue and unfounded.
Elizabeth you are welcome to contact me should you wish to. I will be happy to clarify why the family name was changed. I think another relative, one of my Great Aunts in Australia was in possession of my Grandfathers passing out portrait. It was taken back following a visit to the UK in the 50s. We have documents, medals, ribbons and some family photo albums here.

We as a family do still use Fieldhouse Roberts.

Thank you to all who have sent me messages on this.
Flip, I have now looked for a military history and see he was in the army at 18, but he did not make a career in the army as he was a boot & shoe repairer. I bought records but they did not make any mention of the 1st W War. It does sound as if this might have lead him to change his name.
Thank you also for tracking down his son, also John Richard. From another tree the F appears as Fieldhouse.

If this is the ancestry version of the military record you've found it's not him - this one was 30 years old:

Richard Fieldhouse
Document Year: 1919
Regimental Number: 198109
Regiment Name: Royal Field Artillery
Number of images: 12

Elizabeth, Do you know you have the right Richard Fieldhouse in the Royal Artillary?

It's just that conscription didn't start until 1916 (two years into the war). So if Richard had been born in 1874 he would have been 42. Too old to have been conscripted.

Hi Flip, ChristinaS & Eringobragh,
I think the idea that the first world war is involved seems sensible. I had a quick look at military records and Richard was in the Royal Artillary so I shall send for the record. Perhaps he went AWOL and so changed his surname. I shall have to send for his marriage cert too. Incidently, he didn't seem to use John as that isn't mentioned in his military record, just Richard Fieldhouse.
Flip thanks for discovering their son, John. I am having a very good guess that the F stands for Fieldhouse, yet another cert to purchase!
I am grateful to everyone who has shown an interest and given me new ideas of tracking his family down.
Incidently after 5 years of working on my tree I have just made contact with a first cousin, I had forgotten existed.He is from my dad's side. He only remembers seeing me when I was born, back in the 40's!

Above census with places of birth.


1911 census transcription details for: 73 Shrewsbury Road Market Drayton
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National Archive Reference:

RG14PN16256 RG78PN1007 RD354 SD1 ED6 SN140
Reg. District: Market Drayton
Sub District: Market Drayton
Parish: Drayton in Hales
Enum. District: 6
Address: 73 Shrewsbury Road Market Drayton
County: Shropshire
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
BAGNALL, Thomas Head Married M 23 1888 Tinsmith Now Labourer Salop Hinstock Parish
BAGNALL, Mary Wife Married F 24 1887 Cheshire Crewe Chistchurch Parish
BAGNALL, Hannah Mother Widow F 61 1850 Salop Edgmond Parish
WEBB, Selina Sister Married F 29 1882 Salop Hinstick Parish
WEBB, Almeric Burt Nephew M 5 1906 Salop Little Drayton Parish
WEBB, Oliver Nephew M 4 1907 London Lambeth Parish
WEBB, Thomas Sidney Nephew M 2 1909 Salop Little Drayton Parish
WEBB, Voilet Niece F 0 (6 WEEKS) 1911 Salop Little Drayton Parish



1901 census transcription details for: Ellerton, Cheswardine, Ellerton
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National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 2560
Folio: 115
Page: 7
Reg. District: Market Drayton
Sub District: Market Drayton
Parish: Cheswardine
Enum. District: 21
Ecclesiastical District: St Swithin Cheswardine
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Ellerton, Cheswardine, Ellerton
County: Shropshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
BAGNALL, Hannah Head Widow F 51 1850
Edgmond Newport, Salop
BAGNALL, Thomas Son M 13 1888 Scholar
Links Hinstock, Salop
BAGNALL, Jane Daughter F 11 1890 Scholar
Links Hinstock, Salop
BAGNALL, Mary Daughter F 9 1892 Scholar
Cheswandine, Salop


and Selina



1901 census transcription details for: 1, Cambridge Terrace, St Pancras
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National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 130
Folio: 117
Page: 18
Reg. District: St Pancras
Sub District: Regent's Park
Parish: St Pancras
Enum. District: 4
Ecclesiastical District: St Mary Magdalene
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 1, Cambridge Terrace, St Pancras
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
BONSFIELD, Ellen S Head Widow F 66 1835 Living On Own Means
St Andrew Undershaft, London
BONSFIELD, Florence Daughter Single F 26 1875 Living On Own Means
Lee
BONSFIELD, Rose Daughter Single F 25 1876 Living On Own Means
Lee, Kent
ROMEDENNE, Marie Servant Single F 47 1854 Lady's Maid Domestic
Belgium (Belgian Subject)
LLOYD, Anne Servant Single F 31 1870 Cook Domestic
Henley on Thames, Oxfordshire
GRIMSTEAD, Annie Servant Single F 29 1872 Parlourmaid Domestic
New Southgate, Middlesex
KING, Alice Servant Single F 26 1875 Housemaid Domestic
Whissonsett, Norfolk
>>BAGNALL, Selina Servant Single F 18 1883 Kitchenmaid Domestic
Hinstock, Shropshire



1891 census transcription details for: Links, Hinstock
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National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 2129
Folio: 107
Page: 17
Reg. District: Market Drayton
Sub District: Market Drayton
Parish: Hinstock
Enum. District: 23
Ecclesiastical District: Hinstock
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Links, Hinstock
County: Shropshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
BAGNALL, Samuel Head Married M 45 1846 Bricklayers Labourer
Newcastle, Staffordshire
BAGNALL, Hannah Wife Married F 40 1851
Edgmond, Shropshire
EDWARDS, Harriet Stepdaughter Single F 19 1872
Hinstock, Shropshire
EDWARDS, Nelly Stepdaughter F 15 1876
Hinstock, Shropshire
>>BAGNALL, Selina Daughter F 8 1883
Hinstock, Shropshire
BAGNALL, Lizzie Daughter F 7 1884
Hinstock, Shropshire
BAGNALL, Lillie Daughter F 5 1886
Hinstock, Shropshire
BAGNALL, Thos Son M 3 1888
Hinstock, Shropshire
BAGNALL, Jane Daughter F 0 (9M) 1891
Hinstock, Shropshire
EDWARDS, Lydia Granddaughter F 0 (8M) 1891
Hinstock, Shropshire

1911 England Census
Selina Webb Age in 1911: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Sister Gender: Female Birth Place: Hinstock, Salop, England Civil Parish: Drayton in Hales County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Street Address: 73 Shrewsbury Rd, Market Drayton
Marital Status: Married
Registration District: Market Drayton Registration District Number: 354
Sub-registration District: Market Drayton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6 Household Schedule Number: 140 Piece: 16256
Thomas Bagnell 23
Mary Bagnell 24
Hannah Bagnell 61
Selina Webb 29 married 7 years, 5 children, 4 living
Almeric Burt Webb 5
Oliver Webb 4
Thomas Sidney Webb 2
Voilet Webb 1/12
Source Citation: Class: RG14; Piece: 16256; Schedule Number: 140.

Added:
Ancestry trees claim husband is William Henry Webb, 1859, Lambeth London.

Selina Webb in 1911?

1911 England Census
Selina Webb Age in 1911: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Wife Gender: Female
Birth Place: Brierley Hill, Staffordshire Civil Parish: Brierley Hill
County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England
Street Address: 10 Rocks Hill, Brierley Hill, Staffs, England
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 7 Estimated Marriage Year: 1904
Registration District: Stourbridge
Registration District Number: 373 Sub-registration District: Kingswinford
ED, institution, or vessel: 23 Household Schedule Number: 309 Piece: 17524
Alfred Webb 28
Selina Webb 29
James Webb 6
Joseph Webb 5
Selina Evelyn Webb 1
Source Citation: Class: RG14; Piece: 17524; Schedule Number: 309.

Added:
No, looks like this marriage:
Marriages Dec 1903
UNDERHILL Selina Dudley 6c 23
Webb Alfred Dudley 6c 23

Sorry, I meant Roberts and Fieldhouse.

Selina's not easy to pin down.

Has anyone been able to find a marriage for Selina Bagnall and a Webb?

My theory, for what it's worth, he changed his name to avoid the authorities after dodging the draft or going awol during WW1. She did have time to fit in Richard Roberts - they married Q4/16 and registered m-i-l death Q3/18 - but fast work?

However, I can't find his military record but 70% have been destroyed - is there any way of checking deserter records? He was a shoe repairer/maker so not a protected occupation, and was likely to have been called up.

Do any of the siblings of your great uncle ever use Roberts or keep to Fieldhouse?

Christina,
'Selina Bagnall was her maiden name, she was a widow , married name Webb,'
so how would she also manage to fit in Roberts?

I'm stuck on this theory just for the moment. Selina married Richard Roberts. Left him and moved in with Richard Fieldhouse. They didn't get married, so their children would be registered with the name Roberts. Maybe they were given the name Fieldhouse Roberts.

Selina would have given herself the title of "daughter-in-law" on Martha's death certificate, as she was living with her son, Richard Fieldhouse, as his wife.

Martha wasn't in any position to contradict her!

Well, as I say, it's only a theory.

The marriage certificate would be useful, but I'm not so sure they are different people bearing in mind the mothers death cert.

this is one of their children:

John R F Roberts
Mother's Maiden Surname: Bagnall
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1920
Registration District: MT Drayton
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 1559


John Richard F Roberts
Birth Date: 27 Dec 1919
Date of Registration: Dec 1996
Age at Death: 77
Registration District: South Cheshire
Inferred County: Cheshire
Register Number: B11A
District and Subdistrict: 3411B
Entry number: 231

I wonder what the F stands for?

I think Richard Fieldhouse and Richard Roberts are probably different people.

The only way to check this would be to get the marriage certificate.

Liz replied by pm to say that she had not got the wedding lines, and that he is the middle son of 6 children.

According to 2 Public Family Trees on ancestry, his full name was John Richard Fieldhouse

son of George Fieldhouse and Martha Susannah Martin

There was another unrelated thread, and when we got to the bottom of it the man had reverted to his grandmothers surname - he had deserted from the army during WW1 - kept up the assumed name apart from slipping up on one of his children's births.

Have you checked for a military record under Fieldhouse?