Genealogy Chat

I think your Arthur James was mistaken in thinking that his father's name was Arthur, and not just James Harrison. His sister, Amelia, has given her father's name as James Harrison, on her 1870 marriage.

I suppose their father died sometime between 1852 and 1871. There are too many James Harrisons around at that time to be able to check for sure.

What a shame no one can find any of them on the 1861 census.

The only baptism I can find for a James Harrison born in the Cow Cross area (Smithfield/Clerkenwell) is:

Baptism St.Sepulchre, Holborn Nov. 1819 James Harrison

Parents James and Mary - a turner & gilder - 13, White Horse Alley

They also had a William in 1821

William married Louisa Harrison in 1849 and in 1851 they are living in Newington.

I have a birth certificate of Arthur James Startin b 2 May 1850. Father James Startin (singer) and Mother Amelia Startin Formerly Harrison.Living at 4 Belverdere Place, Southwark.
As someone mention perhaps they were not married at the time of birth, this now makes sense. Perhaps Amelia Startin partner was James Harrison. Therefore he should be Arthur James Harrison.
But that does not solve the other problem that on both Arthur James Harrison marriage certificates of 1873 and 1878 he has his Father as Arthur James Harrison deceased.

ChristinaS, many thanks for your help. I went to Ancestry Public Trees sure enough there a few tree members to make contact, maybe a direct cousin can be found after all these years, it is very much appreciated what you have contributed thus far. I am a pensioner and I live in Perth, Western Australia, sometimes it is difficult to trace or find out how trace relatives are found without the knowledge to know where and what to look up.Once again many thanks.
I will let all know how I get on. :-)

Thank you all for your help. Question any ideas when James Startin and Eliza Startin were born and where they came from please :-)

Ian, I've just realised that someone has this family on Ancestry Public Trees.

If you type in surname Harrison, with parents Arthur James Harrison and Mary Ann Bird you'll see a lot of families coming up. Bowles Family Tree is the one that has followed down on the children.

They also have Arthur James Harrison's mother as Amelia Startin.

In answer to your first question, if you go back to my post 19 Sept 12:50 I posted Amelia Harrison's marriage - on which she named her father as James Startin, so that would confirm her original maiden name. The fact that we can't find a marriage for her to Mr Harrison is probably because they just lived together and she assumed his name.

That birth looks good to me Christina

How does one connect Startin to Harrison. Were there any other children as they seem to breed like rabbits!

The other problem my cousins and I have is how does one trace living relatives of Arthur James Harrison and Mary Ann Bird, also Elizabeth King.
Our parents never mentioned them at all. I have found 11 children in all, one Died Mary Ann Harrison, there is another Mary Ann Harrison born shortly after.

By the way I have written to a relative on the King side of the Family, he too has the same difficulty. Fortunately we had a photo which we believe is Arthur James Harrison and his 2nd wife Mary Ann Bird which I sent to him.
It is on my Family tree here at Genesreunited.

Many thanks on the search thus far, it is greatly appreciated. :-)

Maybe this birth registration, as his parents weren't married. And his mother appears to have been Amelia Startin.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Arthur James Startin

Name: Arthur James Startin
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1850
Registration District: St George Southwark
Inferred County: London
Volume: 4
Page: 462

You should also remember that many children were registered with only 1 name, a second name could be added at baptism, and the birth registration was not usually amended.

Also you will find babies registered as Male xxxxx or Female xxxxx ...... this usually happened when babies were very poorly and not expected to survive, but could also happen when the parents had not decided on a name, but the time period for registering (6 weeks) was running out.


Also, as Flip says, there is difficulty with births prior to 1875.

From July 1 1837 to mid-1875, the onus was on the REGISTRAR to find out about births, and for him to go to the house and register the baby.

It was compulsory to register births from July 1s 1837 onwards, but many were missed.


In mid-1875 the law was changed, and the onus was put on the MOTHER to register a birth. She had to go to the Registrar and make the declarations, or someone had to go on her behalf..

IF she was not married, or the baby's father was not her husband, then the man had to also be present before his name could be added to the certificate as "Father". Alternatively, he could provide a letter or other documentation saying he agreed that he was the father.

If a woman was married, her husband was deemed to be the father of all her children, even if he had been dead for many years. The longest such example that I have found was for a child born more than 10 years after the putative father had died!

Hi Ian

You need to bear in mind that it was not compulsory to register births back then - there were no penalties until much later, sometime in the 1870s.

His first marriage states he is of full age, so must have been born at the latest 1852, unless he lied. Also his address is the same as the 1871 census, so why would he be called James on the census if he were really John (or Arthur John). Added to that is the 1851 census (shame we haven't managed to find 1861) with the same mother.

Many thanks to all for your info. I went to freebmd to see if I can locate him.
After about 4hrs of searching. I think I have found him.
I searched Births from 1837 to 1874. I searched Harrison then selected all the Arthur James and Arthur John in that period. I found 14 with Arthur John and Arthur J from 1837 to 1874.
Then I selected Arthur James I found 9 from 1837 to 1874 the fist Arthur James was in Bath June 1863!
So no Arthur James prior to 1863.
I found Arthur John in June 1843 London and in Luke St in 1851 there are no other Arthur John born in that year, it is 1852 before the next one appears.
So in summing I think his name is Arthur John Harrison and not Arthur James as stated on both his marriage certificates :-)

Could be Flip, also notes on Richard West Marriage, her Father James Harrison, occupation as Gilder, same as 1851.

Certs. could be a help.

Chris :)

Well, if that death is correct Chris, she may be his half sister! Birth is constant throughout the census as 1853 so either a very long pregnancy or ???

However, he was only 30 on the 1851 census so is this doubtful for his death?

EDIT - I've just re-read your last post, so it looks pretty likely to be him with the address confirmation. Wonder if his age was understated on the census because of their age difference?

(no worries Christina, it came up on the link posted, also the below)

Death
Name: HARRISON, James
Registration district: [?] St. George Southwark
County: London
Year of registration: 1851
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: 4
Page no: 378


Name: James Harrison
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1851
Burial Date: 24 Dec 1851
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Parish or Poor Law Union: Walworth St Peter
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Register
(abode, Brandon Street)

Same address as 1851.

Chris :)

(in answer to pm from Ian, Amelia would be his sister)


Births Jun 1852 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Harrison Amelia Newington 1d 190

Hi Ian, welcome back to your thread!

I don't actually think either of them went to school, there are no school admission records on ancestry for either Arthur James (or just James or just Arthur) or Amelia. In addition, Amelia was not able to write when she married - she made her mark.

Arthur James Harrison married Elizabeth King 30th November 1873 Marriage solemnized at St.Johns Church in the Parish of St.Johns Walworth in the County of Surrey,England. Her Father is Joseph King occupation a Brewer, his family are from Sudbury,Suffolk, their family were silk weavers. Arthur was living at 9 Ellis's Square, his father deceased at time of marriage, witnesses to the marriage are Richard West and Elizabeth Mitchels.
Arthur James Harrison was a widower at time of second marriage to Mary Ann Bird marriage date 21st April 1878 Marriage solemnized at St.Johns Church in the Parish of St.Johns Walworth in the County of Surrey,England. Arthur was living at 11 Ellis's Square at the time of second marriage. His occupation was a cellarman.Her father Harry Bird was a perambulator maker.Witness to the marriage was Harry Bird and Louisa Winter.
I am still of the view if one could view a school register to locate his parents,I am assuming there were records kept around 1860 which he would be about 10years of age, as census records are coming up blank. :-)

Hi Ian

It would be much better to reply on your thread, rather than send private messages.

Ian has confirmed the two marriages for Arthur James, and the later details, and thinks the 1881 census is a possibility because of the address.

Ian, to reply on your thread click in the "Add your reply" box below this posting and type in your remarks. Then click on the Submit button.

Guess Amelia (1853) is AJs sister:

Amelia West
[Amelia Parker]
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Richard West
Mother: Emelia Parker
Gender: Female
Where born: Newington, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Newington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 9 Ellis's Sq
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration District: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration District: St Mary Newington
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 552
Folio: 128
Page Number: 43
Household Members: Name Age
Richard West 35
Amelia West 28
Richard G. West 9
Amelia C. West 8
Frederick West 4
Alfred H. West 3
Ellen E. West 1
Richard West 65 (father)
Emelia Parker 50 (mother in law) listed as married

I wonder if this is Arthur James' sister. The address given is 9, Ellis's Square

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name:
Amelia Harrison
Spouse Name:
Richard West
Record Type:
Marriage
Event Date:
5 Jun 1870
Parish:
Newington St Mary
Borough:
Southwark
Father Name:
James Harrison
Spouse Father Name:
Richard West
Register Type:
Parish Register

EDIT: Sorry Chris Ho, I've just realised that you've already posted this marriage.

???


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Emelia Startin
Name: Emelia Startin
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 1 Aug 1830
Father's Name: James Startin
Mother's Name: Eliza Startin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Newington St Mary
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers