Genealogy Chat

Thanks very much for that info SC, I found it very helpful, and gave me a better understanding of census returns. Have a good day... :-)

Graham

you have to remember the following facts ....................


1. People were far less concerned with their ages and birth dates than we are these days .......... life was often too hard, and anyway, most of them were illiterate.

2. The person concerned may not have given the information to the enumerator ............. for example, if they were at work when the enumerator called. In this case, a child might have given the information, OR a lodger, OR even a neighbour ............ I have seen that on one census!

3. Fathers were even less likely to know the ages of their children than mothers were!



As Kucinta told you, and as I said to you earlier on this thread ..........


ages of all people over the age of 15 on the 1841 Census were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5. This was not always done, but most ages were rounded down.

That means any adult on the 1841 Census could be as much as 4 years older than indicated ............ and thus their birth year will be up to 4 years wrong.


Secondly, the age of someone may vary according to the date when the Census was taken vs the actual birth date.


Thirdly, unless you actually look at the census image, you cannot know whether the modern-day transcriber has actually transcribed the age correctly. Many have been mis-read.


Fourthly, you have all the ones who lied about their ages, for one reason or another!

Ok thanks for the added info Kucinta. Some family info came in the post today, all the way from Queensland Australia, about some of the Wise family from Kent who went out there.... James Marden Wise was the brother of my John Wise. James became very wealthy after getting involved in a Gold mine out there.... :-)

People gave their age, not the year they were born, that is 'deduced' by the transcribers of the census record, so that could easily be a year out depending on when their birthday was in relation to the census date

Although the census usually took place in the spring, different censuses occurred on different dates in March, April, or June, which might fall just before or after someone's birthday.

Sometimes people were flexible with their age, particularly if they had a much younger spouse....my great great grandfather 'lost' 11 years in census 1861, soon after he married a 20 yr old when he was 59.

Ages are also often out on census 1841, as the official policy was to round down the age of over 15s to the nearest 5 years, so the age could be up to 4 years out. The policy wasn't always observed though.

So a 2 or 3 year variation over several censuses is not at all uncommon.

I just noticed that the 1851 census for Rotherithe, has John Wise born in 1826, in Kent, wife Ann Wise. So, this helps greatly to confirm that John Wise parents were: John Wise and Sarah Theobald. Still find it a bit strange how John Wise was said to be born in 1823 and 1825 on some of the census, I'm very sure most people would know the year they were born!

Kucinta, has been very helpful with my John Wise, and mentioned the reasons why people have different places on birth on census returns in the same area. He has also pointed out many others things to me, that it all points to John Wise parents being John Wise and Sarah Theobald. I already knew that his father was also called John, but was unsure about his mother. I must admit, I'm still not 100% sure, but seems very much like I have his correct mother.

According to the 1861 census John Wise was born in Gilling in Kent, he was living at Doris Street Poplar. On the 1851 census it has him born in Sheldwich, on the 1871 census has him born in another place (it seems) in Kent, I wish he would make his mind up! lol

So, to sum up about this: we ALL agree that my John Wise Parents were: John Wise and Sarah Theobald. :-D

I did notice a lead, a clue that would also be very useful: John Wise Birthday/date is mentioned: 12th Feb. So, that maybe helpful later on... if I came across any other old documents...

I know my John Wise married an Ann Drury, so, when I saw a John Drury above, this did make me think... ? However, still pretty sure my John Wise mother was: Sarah Theobald.

Thanks Kucinta, I'm quite happy to have my John Wise parents being: John Wise and Sarah Theobald, because I have got the family info going way back... :-)

You'll have to decide yourself if these guys are ruled out.

Census 1841:

Address: Grove Street Cornish Place, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich
County: Kent
WISE, Edward M 50 1791 Kent
WISE, Ann F 50 1791 Kent
WISE, John M 18 1823 Kent
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address: Maidstone Barracks, Maidstone County: Kent

WISE, John M 15 1826

No parents, but not born in county, so not born Kent.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address: Standen, Biddenden County: Kent

WITHERDEN, Joseph M 45 1796 Farmer Kent
WITHERDEN, Ann F 40 1801 Kent
WITHERDEN, Thos M 85 1756 Independent Kent
WISE, John M 20 1821 Agricultural Labourer Kent
DRURY, John M 15 1826 Kent
HUMPHRY, Mary F 20 1821 Female Servant Kent

No parents with him but aged at least 20, could be aged up to 24 if age has been rounded down to the nearest 5 years.

May well be this illegitimate one baptised Biddenden:

Name: John Thomas Wise
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 21 Nov 1819
Christening Place: Biddenden, Kent, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Sophia Wise
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03786-2
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1473744
Reference ID: yr 1813-1932 p 38
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address: Little S K, Dartford, Sutton At Hone County: Kent

WISE, Paul M 65 1776 Kent
WISE, Elizh F 60 1781 Kent
WISE, John M 20 1821 Kent
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As people only answered yes or no as to whether they were born in the county they were living in at the time of the 1841 census, there may be John Wises born in Kent living in another county.

If you're not convinced by the evidence that Mavis, Reggie, Shirley and others have found for you so far with regard to John Francis Wise and Sarah Theobalds, then I think you're unlikely to ever resolve the issue.

Because I have gone way back with the Wise family in Kent (family information that was passed onto me on here...) I need to be very sure I'm not climbing up someone else tree! It can happen, and there are probably quite a few people out there... climbing up the wrong tree! I know for sure 100% that John Wise father was also called John Wise, and now very sure that his mother was Sarah Theobald. John also called one of his children: Sarah E.Wise, I take it she was named after his mother.

It is also probable the case that ALL these Wise families link up to my Wise line. The other John Wise parents being: Thomas and Elizabeth are probably cousins with the other Wises' living in the same area, or nearby.

Thanks for the added information Kucinta, it seems very much like I have his correct parents: John Wise ( I know for sure), and Sarah Theobald. What about the other John Wises' on the 1841 census ? I take it they have been ruled out...

First you have to remember relationships were not described in the 1841, so you can only assume possible parentage, unless you have other corroborating evidence

As Reggie has already pointed out, the 15 yr old living with the Baileys (your opening post) had his probable parents with him. Father called Thomas.

So it's not that confusing.

Address: Tanners Street, East Side, Faversham County: Kent

WISE, Thomas M 40 1801 Kent
WISE, Elizabeth F 40 1801 Kent
WISE, John M 15 1826 Kent
WISE, Caleb M 8 1833 Kent
WISE, James M 5 1836 Kent
WISE, Emma F 3 1838 Kent
WISE, Jane F 0 (6 months) 1841 Kent
BAILEY, John M 60 1781 Kent
BAILEY, Sarah F 65 1776 Kent

As Reggie and Shirley have also pointed out, a John Wise with parents John and Sarah:

Address: Well's Forstall, Sheldwich County: Kent

WISE, John M 40 1801 Kent
WISE, Sarah F 35 1806 Kent
WISE, George M 20 1821 Kent
WISE, John M 15 1826 Kent<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WISE, Alfred M 11 1830 Kent
WISE, Sarah F 9 1832 Kent
WISE, Samuel M 7 1834 Kent
WISE, Stephen M 4 1837 Kent
WISE, Emma F 1 1840 Kent

Mavis gave you these baptisms in Sheldwich on your previous thread, which tally with the family above:

"Sheldwich baptisms

This is the family of John and Sarah Wise -- John is a thatcher from 1820 to 1827
then a Lab. from 1829 to 1845.
on the 1851 census he is John F Wise [Francis] born Selling Kent

George 24th Oct 1820
William 31st Mar 1822
Harriet 18th Jan 1824
John 12th Feb 1826
James Marden 21st Oct 1827 - looks as if he went to Australia
Alfred 1st Nov 1829
Sarah 18th Mar 1832
Samuel 2nd Mar 1834
Stephen 4th Dec 1836
Emma 12th Jan 1840
Mary Ann 2nd Oct 1842
Barbara 22nd June 1845

Quite a family -- not checked the burials

John Francis Wise = Sarah Theobalds 30 Dec 1819 Selling Kent. [ Faversham]"

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1321469?page=1

I have added that 1851 census Mavis mentioned:

Address: Shepherds Forstall, Sheldwich County: Kent

WISE, John F Head Married M 52 1799 Ag Lab Selling, Kent
WISE, Sarah Wife Married F 49 1802
Selling, Kent
WISE, James M Son Unmarried M 23 1828 Ag Lab
Sheldwich, Kent
WISE, Barbara Daughter F 6 1845 Scholar
Sheldwich, Kent
BROWNING, Thomas Lodger Unmarried M 23 1828 Ag Lab
Boughton Blean, Kent

Personally I would have thought that evidence pretty conclusive....

According to the 1841 census, there were about 6 John Wise born around 1823/6 in Kent. If any of them had a father called: John Wise, and the others didn't, I know I have the right John! :-) The other thing is, one John Wise on there aged abt 15, was living with another family, or something like that, confusing!!!

Ok thanks for the added info, Porkie P :-)

Another point with regard to a child leaving home at a young age,

Girls could get married at age 12 and 14 for boys with parental consent up until around 1929

Roy

Thanks again for all your help! I have taken notes, and will help greatly with my research... hope your research is going ok. :-D