Genealogy Chat

A conundrum! Do you agree that these are the same couple?

29 August 1837 – a marriage took place, after Banns, between Joseph Savage, bachelor, occupation Lighterman to Ann Taylor, spinster. His father William Savage (Carpenter?, deceased), her father George Taylor (Hatter).

De ja vu

19 March 1843 – (another) marriage took place, between Joseph John Savage, WIDOWER, occupation Lighterman to Ann Taylor, spinster. His father William Savage (Carpenter, apparently not deceased), her father George Taylor (Hatter).

I feel there are too many coincidences for them not to be the same couple (and the signatures look very similar - if so, what was Joseph thinking of when he married Ann in 1837!

I cannot imagine this was this the reason - September Quarter 1839 - Louisa Jane Savage - her mother Ann Savage formerly Taylor and father Joseph John Savage, lighterman. Odd though, mother was the informant but marked, not signed (perhaps she couldn't sign 'savage').

What do others think?

Thank you

J-A

Have you looked to see (probably on Parish records) if Joseph Savage had a previous marriage?

He could either have married Ann Taylor knowingly as a bigamist, or he thought wife number one had died. I've seen parish records when a bride has been named as a spinster where as she was actually a widow. Mistakes or other interpretations by the priest can occur

+++DetEcTive+++

I haven't found anything yet - just that both marriages to Ann Taylor came up in a search for J J Savage - I originally discounted the second one as it was after the birth of the daughter ( I used her DOB as a starting point year and worked backwards), but looked at it another time - I will need to do as you suggest and try Parish Records

I wonder if this marriage is connected - found on familysearch:

Name Joseph John Savage
Spouse's Name Mary Ann Munro
Event Date 25 Nov 1832
Event Place Holy Trinity,Newington,Surrey,England

Not every one married before they had children....they then pretended they were when they registered the birth

Adeline - yes that could be one to follow up, thank you

+++DetEcTive+++ I agree, although, so far, most of mine seem to make it 'just in time' for the birth - with one notable exception, they had half their family before getting round to the wedding ceremony part

Same record as Adeline posted from Ancestry

Joseph John Savage - bachelor
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Munro - spinster
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Nov 1832
Parish: Newington Holy Trinity
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Register

Can't make out both witnesses names - one is a Charles G White.
Too early to give the names of the fathers or any occupations

William Savage occupation on the 1837 image is Coal Porter (dec)
Added - William Savage on 1843 is something beginning with C Porter, not carpenter.

Although Joseph John Savage's signature might be slightly different on the 1837 one it matches with the 1832 marriage. However, there is quite good evidence that the same Joseph John Savage was involved in all three.

Thanks for those updates +++DetEcTive+++, did have a bit of trouble reading the occupation, and was probably misled by the occupation on the other cert - suppose it is more likely to have an occupation change than the other potential coincidences though.

Looks like I have more digging to do for Joseph John.

Thanks for your help

Death of first wife? Pity it doesn't give ages!

Mary Ann Savage
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1838
Registration District: Whitechapel
Inferred County: London
Volume: 2
Page: 51_

Just seen the C Porter bit (was surprised when I read it as carpenter), certainly coal porter fits in more with my lot though, and that death of Mary Ann Savage looks interesting - I suppose it is possible she was ill and he was off out finding wife No 2 - but then if she was ill, maybe they could have waited - or maybe he went off before that!

As you say lots if bits point to it being Joseph John in all three marriages. I know he appears in other trees, but usually only as father of Louisa (edited from Louis!) Jane, will go for another look around.

On this 1841 census, the head of the household's age really faint but I don't think it says 22 although I am certain it says lamplighter.

1841 England Census about Joseph Savage
Name: Joseph Savage
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: St George Middlesex
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
View Image
Registration District: St George in the East
Sub-registration District: St Mary
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 696
Book: 11
Folio: 5
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Savage 22
Ann Savage 20
Joseph Savage 10 **** Says 12 on original
Mary Savage 8
George Savage 4
Jane Savage 2

Possible proof that Joseph snr was indeed previously married to Mary Ann Munro?

England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906 about Joseph John Savage
Name: Joseph John Savage
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 20 Jun 1833
Christening Place: St. John, Surrey, Eng
Father's Name: Joseph John Savage
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Maternal Grandfather's Name: William Munro

What really throws me is the 1851 census.
Head of household is a lamplighter but definitely entered as George?

1851 England Census about Ann Savage
Name: Ann Savage
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George Savage
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: St. Johns, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Stepney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration District: Stepney
Sub-registration District: Mile End Old Town Upper
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 155
Piece: 1552
Folio: 164
Page Number: 37
Household Members:
Name Age
George Savage 44
Ann Savage 33
George Savage 15
Louisa Savage 12
Henry Savage 4

GlasgowLass, so difficult to get my head around those Savages but that christening record certainly looks like the proof that he was married to Mary Ann Munro and then Ann Taylor - not sure about the "I am now George" bit, possibly an enumerator error?

Perhaps he could no longer be a 'lighterman' - and changed to lamplighter - or maybe I have been getting confused with lighterman - working in the docks and a man who lights lamps.

Mmmmm now I am wondering about this (from LMA, so might need a trip there)

MARY ANN SAVAGE IS ORDERED TO BE REMOVED FROM THE PARISH OF SAINT MARGARET, WESTMINSTER TO DUBLIN (why Dublin? Unless she is Mary Ann Munro - this was in Feb 1838 - Business relating to the removal of Scottish and Irish paupers) - perhaps Joseph registered her death in Whitechapel in Q1 1838? Or it may not be connected at all!

I think this is possibly the burial for that 1838 death:

London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980
about Mary Ann Savage

Name: Mary Ann Savage
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1838
Burial Date: 28 Jan 1838
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1783
Parish or Poor Law Union: Spitalfields Christ Church with St Mary and St Stephen
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Register

Lived Frying Pan Alley (what a great name!)

Don't know enough about London districts to know if this is possible?

London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980
about Mary Ann Savage

Name: Mary Ann Savage
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1840
Burial Date: 30 Aug 1840
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Parish or Poor Law Union: Clerkenwell St James
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Register

Lived Lamb Court.

Either could be possible - Tower Hamlets and Islington can be in close proximity at some parts of London, and Frying Pan Alley is E1 not far from the change to Islington Borough - I think the 1838 one could be Mary Ann Munro

EDIT: Then again maybe she was Joseph John's mother...(as she was about 55), or maybe he married an older woman..... had one child, then went and married Ann Taylor. Too much speculation.

Apologies:
1841 census does say Lighterman and not Lamplighter!

I don't know enough about London Boroughs either to make any real connections but as far as I can see, no two records have the same address?

1832 marriage: no address
1837 marriage: both parties live at No3 East Street
1838 death of Mary Ann Savage: Frying Pan Alley
1839 birth of Lousa Jane: Marmon Street
1840 death of Mary Ann Savage: Lamb Court
1841 census: Grove Street
1843 marriage :23 and 14 William Street

GlasgowLass - nothing too far from each other

*East Street - off Walworth Road, SE London (now SE17)
**Frying Pan Alley, Spitalfields, East London E1
Marmon Street - still looking for it
Lamb Court, Islington - probably not too far into Islington
**Grove Street (St George in the East) - Spitalfields area
**William Street (Mile End Old Town)

**All in relatively close proximity - on east side of River Thames
* Just across London Bridge and you are in East London and close to **

Thanks for the update on Lighterman (LMA have records so will check them out) - as it was working on the barges on the River in Port of London he could easily have been on both sides of the water.

Off to look for Marmon Street

EDITED - Nothing coming up for Marmon but definitely something for Harman Street - which was in Spitalfields area too - just looked at a map, more Hoxton area so a bit further along and across the Kingsland Road towards Islington (although Hoxton is close to Spitalfields anyway)

Can only conclude they are connected in some way....