Genealogy Chat

I have a pocket testament from a Great Grandfather about whom I know very little. It is all I have. His name was George Cutt. His address was recorded on the inside of the Testament as 2 Royal Oak Place Victoria SW1. I have researched and identified jobs and locations where he lived before and after WW1. Inside the Testament he wrote Manbina (or Mankina?) Feb 3/2/19 Basra. As the pocket testaments were often given to servicemen there is a possibility he was in the one of the branches of the military when he received this. His age, although he was not very young, meant he was liable for conscription. Basra was occupied by the British in WW1 who stayed until after the war; Manbina or Mankina is a name that has produced no results. There is no extant service record that I can find. Any suggestions? What was Manbina or Mankina? Can I even confirm he was called up?

He may well have served in WW1, but over 70% of WW1 records were destroyed as a result of enemy bombing in WW2.

If there is nothing on Ancestry, his record (IF there was one) did not survive.

One would assume that if he WAS in Basra in 1919, that he was there as part of the British service contingent, unless his occupation was such that he could have been there as a civilian.

Is the writing in the Testament known to be his?

Could Manbina/Mankina be a person's name?

The British unit involved in actions in Basra was the 13th (Western) Division............google for details

I can't see images as I only have basic Ancestry membership, but the address seems to flag up George and Christina Cutt on London electoral registers 1921-1927. Would that make sense?
Are you 100% sure of 1st letter for 'Mankina', as you say nothing whatsoever showing up on google.
Jan

Can you check medal cards for G or George Cuff. The date of entry into theatre might even indicate he enlisted prior to conscription coming into effect.

Nice one Jan!
I wonder if Mankina could just possibly be Christina?
Or is Christina his mother, she seems to be the head on the ER 1921, will check another few years.

Edit
Is that what HO means, Home Owner, I know I have this info filed somewhere

Kind regards
Amanda

Many thanks for the effort. I would scan the writing but I cannot see a way to send a scan with this message. I am sure the first letter is "M"and the only hit I got was somewhere in the Congo - it would make a nice story to tell about a Great Grandfather who fought in the Congo to protect Belgium's colonial empire from the Germans but somehow I think the book would have to go into the fiction section of a library.

The London electoral registers would make sense - never knew they existed although they, presumably, would not help answer my question - he was born 1877 and dies 1937 and spent all of his working life, as far as I can discover, in London. George was a coachman who then became a chauffeur working most of his life in the knightsbridge area of London. The last job description I have, describes him as a chauffeur for hire living at 24 Thorpe Road, South Lambeth, across the Thames from the Knightsbrige area he knew so well. I have a birth date that would make him 39 in 1916 when the conscription act passed and a date, based upon the 1911 census return, that would make him 41 in 1916 - the upper limit for conscription.

There are no family oral memories because he and his wife Christina, only had one child, a daughter,also Christina, who died in 1926 as a result if giving birth to my father and my father grew up believing his stepmother was his birth mother. By the time he was aware of the truth, George was already dead. The result is that there were no oral traditions passed down. George went through a transportation revolution of horses and private livery to private cars and limos. He and his wife, Christina, lived in mews - now very expensive but obviously not then - most of their lives. The mews were in and around Knightsbridge.

To answer your questions, the writing is very clear - the only confusion is whether the "h" could be a "k" I cannot verify the writing as his - it appears different writing from the name and address in the Testament but I also have no idea who recorded that information. The Testament was the only thing passed down to my father through his Grandmother. The date with the two words are in pencil. My grandfather's name and address is in pen. You have made me relook at the pencil additions and they are more child like so it could be his daughter but even if it was the questions are still the same even if my assumption they were to do with war service is now on even less firm ground. Manbina could be anything, true I searched for place names, battles and campaigns but it could be some ones name. There is a western India settlement called Mankina Jadde that interested me as India was a supply source for Mesopotamia but I could find no information about it and I felt this was just extending my deductions too far out from hard evidence. Thanks for the tip re the British reg in Basra which I will explore and thanks for getting me to look afresh at the writing and realise my critical faculties had been repressed by my enthusiasm .
Regards
Andrew Clinch.

Just one last thought! Having done a bit of googling, Arabic names seem to often have 'al 'at the start which we tend to miss off - Basra is Al-Basra for example, There is a place in Basra province called Al Madina(h) - might that be it?
Found it here:
http://www.maplandia.com/iraq/al-basrah/al-madinah/

There is also this, not sure if it makes any sense:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2038503/Basra%20%28Makina%29%20Civil%20Cemetery

The above cemetery is now Basra war cemetery, so might be linked??? It was used 1914-1916:

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Overseas/IraqWW1GravesRecovery.html

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/57200/BASRA%20WAR%20CEMETERY

Jan

You have given me something to digest. I am genuinely impressed. As an aside, I volunteer in my local museum in Canada trying to record, research and describe old photographs so I recognize the experience that is reflected in some of your suggestions. I did try to paste a graphics image of the writing ( as that seems to be a concern when you are responding blind) but, not surprisingly, I failed. I wonder why this site does not have this capacity.

Amanda - Christina is both daughter and mother. The daughter is Christina Ellen Cutt and the mother Christina Armstrong Cutt. Sorry for the confusion.

brummiejan your suggestion re Al Madinah being Manbina is intriguing. Basra which I accepted uncritically is in fact Al Basrah which helps underpin your argument. brummiejan, you led me to accept that George Cutt's daughter could have written the penciled words and dates and she could have anglicized the spelling. It is one of those good ideas that goes just a little bit too far beyond what can be substantiated but because Madinah is close to Basra who knows?

Since writing this you got me thinking and therefore looking, I found in Al Basrah there is also and area called Makina, close to the word Mankina or Manbina. Again no proof for this interpretation either but it is worth recording as a hypothesis. I made another discovery, as a result of you identifying the 13th (Western) Division as the force to look at. They demobbed in Feb 1919 in Amara. As this was over 500km from the sea in Iraq and as Barsa is a port, I had reservations of any link until I discovered "The country that is today Iraq consisted, in 1914, of the three Turkish Vilayets of Basrah, Baghdad and Mosul" Thus the 13th demobbed from the Vilavet of Basrah. I may be building castles in the air ( I have had stronger connections that have collapsed on me) but you have led me to a theory that is stronger than the one I had before. All I need to know is whether George Cutt was conscripted but I guess that will be denied me. I did search the military records at Genesreunited - I assume they have the military medal records that are still extant - I searched 1916 +/- 4years under Cut, Cutt, George Cutt, and G.Cutt. No luck.

Again many thanks. I did not expect the quality of help that I have received.

Regards

Andrew C

Andrew - re: "I assume they have the military medal records that are still extant"

British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
I don't think they do - Ancestry has 2 plain Georges, plus 1 with an extra initial name. You know your guy was in Mespot, so you should be ablle to narrow it down to probably just one possibles.

You'll need someone to look for you, or else you can find a library with an Ancestry sub, or a nearby LDS FHC where you can look it up yourself, or keep your fingers crossed and hope Ancestry makes them free for Remembrance Day.

***** EDIT - I LOOKED UP WRONG NAME (HAD TV GLASSES ON, NOT MY READING ONES) SO I'VE REDONE THE COUNTS *****

Is this him 1891? (He puts Roehampton as birthplace 1901). He has middle initial, though he didn't use it when he married Christina. I wonder why ... !

Have you tried looking for brothers in WW1, you never know. Or maybe you can track down some other descendents - there should be some family stories, maybe not about George, but of interest anyway.

Name: George Waterland Cutt
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1877
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 742

1881 England Census
Name: George W. Cutt
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Henry A. Cutt
Mother's Name: Emma A. Cutt
Gender: Male
Where born: Roehampton, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 18 Queens Terrace Mews

Occupation: Coachman Son

Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Kensington Town

Henry A. Cutt 32
Emma A. Cutt 30
Percival M. Cutt 9
Horace C. Cutt 7
George W. Cutt 4
Edward D. Cutt 3
Harriett B. Cutt
Thomas Best 15


1891 England Census about Waterland Cutts
Name: Waterland Cutts
[Waterland Cutt]
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Henry H Cutts
Mother's Name: Enna Cutts
Gender: Male
Where born: Rohampton, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Kensington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Augustine
County/Island: London

Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Brompton

Henry H Cutts 40
Enna Cutts 39
Percy Cutts 18
Horace Cutts 16
Waterland Cutts 14
Edward Cutts 13
Harriett Cutts 10
Lawrence Cutts 6

Many of the soldiers who served in WW1 called it the 14-19 war not the 14-18 war as so many were not repatriated until 1919.

My own grandfather was signed up in 1916 (just before conscription was brought in) and did not return home until around October 1919. He was in Turkey, this part of the war is often called the 'forgotten war' as it is less documented than all that happened in France.

Good luck with your research.

If you still wanted to give people the opportunity to look at the scan, you could use the ‘Keepsafe’

Once uploaded, make sure that the privacy levels are set to ‘Shared with everyone’ and post on the thread *exactly* what you have named it as. People can then use ‘Search Photos and Media’ from the Search button options

Death index for Christina?

Deaths Jun 1958
CUTT Christina 80 Surrey S.E. 5g 751

I had a look in the London Gazette but the only person of that name was in WW2 and Canadian, so I didn't mention it.

However, I see that you are in Canada, so, for interest, the President of the USA awarded a Bronze Star Medal to Sergeant Kenneth George Cutt, Canadian Infantry Corps.

In June 1945, The King gave special permission for this and other American awards to be worn without restriction and this was reported in the Gazette on 2/4/1946.

1901 for info

Name:George Cutt
Age:29
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1872
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Christina Cutt
Gender:Male
Where born:Rockhampton, Surrey, England
Civil parish:Datchet
Ecclesiastical parish:Datchet St Mary
County/Island:Buckinghamshire

Andrew

Good luck with your research .....

very interesting thread to read thru ...

Well done to those that helped

Andrew

I found this thread very interesting, largely because of the following ................


My grandfather was born in 1875, was called up in 1915, and mobilized in August 1916, even though he had a wife and 3 children by that time.

I was lucky enough to find his records on ancestry, although they are incomplete.

He joined the Manchester Regiment, did his training, then transferred to the Machine Gun Corps in October 1916.

Some records are then missing ............. because they next show that he sailed from Bombay in late July 1917

I'd love to know what he did in the intervening 9 months, how he got from the UK to Bombay, and why!

He arrived in Basrah in mid-August, and records show that he was with the 128th Machine Gun Company in Amara, Baghdad, and Ramadia during the period until 26 Dec 1918 when he embarked for return to England.


He did not die until I was 23 ............. but he never talked about his military service, and my brother and I never forced the issue.

His son died suddenly in 1992, ............... I left it for about 6 months before writing to ask if I could have any mementoes, documents, etc.

She replied that "she had burnt everything to with that family", and her final comment was "she knew no-one else would be interested" ...... but she had not contacted me (my brother was also dead by that time), the only 2 grandchildren.


I sometimes wonder what she might have burnt ................... and whether I should not have been so considerate of her feelings when her husband died!



I do however have a sword that Grandfather picked up on the battlefield, and later used to chop wood!

He later gave it to my mother, and I brought it over here, although it has been "modified" because the blade broke under the wood chopping, and it has been re-attached, but is shorter than it should be..

I did not bring the other "present" he gave to Mum ........... a dried flying fish that had landed on the deck of the ship as they were crossing the Mediterranean! I think my brother took that ........ but have no idea where it is now, or whether it even still exists.

Name: George W Cutt
Birth Date: abt 1878
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1937
Age at Death: 59
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 1d
Page: 302

This brother was in the Navy WW1
Naval Roll
Name:
Percival H Cutt
Medal or Award:Star, Victory Medal, British War Medal
Service Year:1914-1920
Service Location:Europe
Campaign or Service:World War I
Service Number:340874