Genealogy Chat

Thanks so much for all the info and the time you have taken out to research this family.

I started to find the family members in 1911, and as you found, i also found that Thomas and Hannah had died between 1901 and 1911.
His Sister Mary E Smith, married a chapman and on lanc-opc her father just like Henry/harry was down as Thomas - Carter - deceased.
So i'm confident its the right family, also this sister Mary E Smith who married a man called Chapman, in 1911 they are living on Holland Street, the next street ascoss from Cobden St, and her brother George is living with them.

Its funny that he is down everywhere as Harry, because on his marriage cert its Henry and on his son's marriage cert, again its Henry, but my Nana always knew him as being called harry.

Thanks again for all your help, i'll carry on researching this family
:-)

Seems there're 2 Cobden Streets less than 1km apart - who'ld have thunk it.
What's probly our Cobden St is just a block away from Dawson - to the E.

Just this weekend (incl Mon), there's free access to Ancestry's 1901/11 censuses - what we want is the 1911 census summsry book collection. Search for last name=Nottingham, street address=Bridge - and view the image - you can page thru the book (keep an eye on the sequence #s) and find the places on an old map centred on 378600,401800. The enumeration starts with the Nottinghams' tripe shop.

I had a look on lan-opc and bound baptisms for all the kids - here's Harry:

Baptism: 29 Feb 1888 St Peter, Swinton, Lancashire, England
Harry Smith - [Child] of Thomas Smith & Anna
Born: 10 Jan 1888
Abode: Swinton
Occupation: Carter
Baptised by: F. P. Nash
Register: Baptisms 1886 - 1894, Page 46, Entry 368
Source: LDS Film 2356299

A lookup on Ancestry gets the image

Exact Search Results - Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915
Name Baptism Date Parent Given Names Parish View Images
Harry Smith date Thomas , Anna city

However, I've no sub there.

Harry's really Harry Mk II - here's Mk I

Baptism: 22 Jun 1882 St Peter, Swinton, Lancashire, England
Harry Smith - [Child] of Thomas Smith & Anna
Born: 13 Apr 1882
Abode: Swinton
Occupation: Carter
Notes: P
Baptised by: P. L. Hesketh
Register: Baptisms 1876 - 1886, Page 113, Entry 898
Source: LDS Film 2356299

Burial: 29 Jul 1882 St Peter, Swinton, Lancashire, England
Harry Smith -
Age: 3 mos
Abode: Swinton
Grave: 721
Buried by: P. L. Hesketh
Register: Burials 1872 - 1928, Page 169, Entry 1351
Source: LDS Film 2356300

To see the burial rego:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND
England, Lancashire, Ches...rish Registers, 1603-1910 > Lancashire > Swinton, St Peter > Burials, 1872-1910 > Image 86 of 181


EDIT Notes P indicates this was a Private baptism - presumably Harry wasn't doing so good.

378000,401700 will get all 4 addy's on one frame of the 1908-9 map - well, I say this but I don't know where on Station Rd # 33 is - what you get in frame is the S end of Station Rd (which doesn't have a legible name on it, being full of tram tracks).

For each of the 3 Thos/Hannah censuses I posted, we see:
Registration district: Barton Upon Irwell
Sub-registration district: Worsley

So I looked on FreeBMD for births rego'ed 1885-1889 for H Smith, then weeded out the Henry/Harry/Harolds from the Henriettas and Horatios, then looked them.
I want to identify those rego'ed in Worsley.

First of all, I need to know what Barton-upon-Irwell RD covered.
I can look it up here,
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/index.html

or click on the "Barton I" link on any FreeBMD hit, then the more info "here" link to get the following key info:

BARTON UPON IRWELL REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Sub-districts : Barton, Stretford, Worsley.
Registers currently held at : Salford and Trafford.

Barton & Worsley are held by the modern Salford RD, and Stretford by Trafford RD.

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/subdists.php
Stretford Sub-District
Created 1 July 1837. Abolished 1 April 1937. In Chorlton Registration District (1837-50) and Barton-upon-Irwell Registration District (1850-1937).
Flixton [Lancs], Stretford [Lancs], Urmston [Lancs]
Records now held at Trafford.

Births Jun 1886 (>99%)
SMITH Harry Barton I. 8c 633 WOR/54/58
WILDE Sarah Barton.I 8c 633 WOR/54/58
Wolfendale Male Barton I 8c 633 WOR/54/59

Births Mar 1888 (>99%)
SMITH Harry Barton I. 8c 636 WOR/58/26
LUNT Letitia Elizabeth Barton I 8c 636 WOR/58/24

Births Jun 1888 (>99%)
SMITH Henry Barton I 8c 630 WOR/58/73
SMITH William Barton I. 8c 630 WOR/58/72
TARBROOK Edward Lincoln Barton I 8c 630 WOR/58/72

Births Dec 1889 (>99%)
Smith Henry Worthington Barton I. 8c 624 WOR/61/41
Rothwell Frederick Barton I. 8c 624 WOR/61/40

As you can see, I clicked on page # to show other names on page, then looked up those on LancsBMD - My Smith should have a local ref close to the one I looked up (close as the GRO page has 10 names, the local page has only 5, and they needn't be aligned on the GRO page boundaries).

These also looked likely:

Deaths Jun 1903 (>99%)
Smith Thomas 49 Barton I. 8c 392

Deaths Mar 1906 (>99%)
Smith Hannah 60 Barton I 8c 378
Salford has transcribed no deaths, so all I can say is they weren't rego'ed in Stretford.


There were 2 oddities -
Births Mar 1889 (>99%)
Grassham Sarah Ellen Barton I. 8c 691
Ryecroft Joseph Barton I. 8c 691
Smith Harold Middleton Barton I. 8c 691 [STR/41/8 I guess, but there's no transcription of rego 41 yet - rego 40 ended on v=8c p=687]

Births Mar 1887 (>99%)
Smith Harold Greenwood Barton I. 8c 641 STR/38/38 [1886]
WARBURTON Lily Barton I. 8c 641 STR/38/39 [1886]
WEIGH Vernon Royle Barton I. 8c 641 STR/38/39
WILKINSON Grace Barton I. 8c 641 STR/38/38 [1886]

As you can see by the latter page, LancsBMD indexes by year of birth, not year of registration.

Thanks for that, i will definatly look into the Smith Family you have found.

Also thanks for the map info again, yes i know that area, and nowadays at the top of wellington road there is a big Morrisons Supermarket, but you say, wellington road carried on then became Cobden street, (i didnt know that!) and its not too far from dawson street, so the smiths are definatly in the same area.

I will go and have a look at the old maps online,

Thanks again

:-) :-)

Alison - since you live in Swinley, you'll know some of this. Head out of the civic centre onto Chorley Rd (A6). 100m to left, Station Rd heads N past Swinley Station, and gets renamed after Bolton Rd (A666). Instead 100m to right from civic centre, Wellington Rd heads N, it crosses Wardley St, then ends nowadays at Swinley Hall Rd (500m to E along this is Dawson St). In 1909, Wellington St crossed Swinley Hall Rd and continued as Cobden St, a small cul de sac.

Now I don't know who your Henry was, but I've got a Harry, s/o Thomas. Thos was a Carter in 1881/91. It's a bit off-putting that he's down as Harry - although Harry is a traditional variant of Henry, around the turn of the century, Harry started becoming a name in it's own right, so I don't know if the Harry I've followed was really Henry, or if he instigated his own gentrification in his 20s. Is your Nana aware of any of Henry's siblings, or his occup? Having a sibling as a marr witness is what I'ld expect, but I have seen cousins appear too - I would think mere friends were still pretty rare in 1915.

Here's the h/h I was looking at:

1901 England Census Transcription
Street:13 COBDEN STREET
Parish:SWINTON
Town:SWINTON
City:
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
Ecclesiastical District:ST PETERS SWINTON
Municipal Ward:SWINTON NORTH
Parliamentary Borough:ECCLES SOUTH EAST
Registration District:BARTON UPON IRWELL
Registration Sub-District: Worsley
Enumeration District:13
Archive Reference:RG13 Piece Number:3655 Folio:12 Page:16

THOMAS SMITH 1852 49 Swinton, Lanc HEAD M Colliery Labourer above ground
HANNAH SMITH 1845 56 Swinton, Lanc WIFE M
GEORGE SMITH 1876 25 Swinton, Lanc SON S Colliery Labourer above ground
THOMAS SMITH 1883 18 Swinton, Lanc SON S Laundry Van Man
MARY E SMITH 1886 15 Swinton, Lanc DAUGHTER S Laundry Collar Ironer
HARRY SMITH 1888 13 Swinton, Lanc SON


1891 England Census Transcription
Street:33 STATION ROAD
Parish:WORSLEY
Town:SWINTON
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
Ecclesiastical District:ST PETERS
Municipal Ward:SWINTON & PENDLEBURY
Parliamentary Borough:ECCLES
Registration District:BARTON UPON IRWELL
Registration Sub-District 1C Worsley
Enumeration District:13
Archive Reference:RG12 Piece Number:3150 Folio:69 Page:11

THOMAS SMITH 1854 37 Eccles, Lanc HEAD M Caster
HANNAH SMITH 1846 45 Swinton, Lanc WIFE M
GEORGE SMITH 1876 15 Swinton, Lanc SON S Labourer
WILLIAM SMITH 1879 12 Swinton, Lanc SON Labourer
JAMES SMITH 1881 10 Swinton, Lanc SON
THOMAS SMITH 1883 8 Swinton, Lanc SON
MARY E SMITH 1886 5 Swinton, Lanc DAUGHTER
HARRY SMITH 1888 3 Swinton, Lanc SON
[Image says Caster - might be a mistranscription of Carter by enumerator]


1881 England Census
Civil parish: Worsley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 6 Wardley St
Registration district: Barton Upon Irwell
Sub-registration district: Worsley
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Class: RG11; Piece: 3878; Folio: 18; Page: 29

Thomas Smith 26 Eccles, Lancashire, England Head M Carter
Hannah Smith 33 Swinton, Lancashire, England Wife M
George Smith 5 Swinton, Lancashire, England Son
William Smith 2 Swinton, Lancashire, England Son
James Smith Swinton, Lancashire, England Son


Although I feel quite good abt this Harry, it really is pretty speculative.

Hello,
Sorry for only just getting back to this thread.....school holidays.....kids keeping me busy!
Henry's age at his marriage was aged 28 and Ethel was 26, it says Henry's occupation was 'Soilder' but not had any luck in finding any army records for him.

Yes that is the marriage in 1915...the first witness - Annie Richards, she is a sister of Ethel's, and the other witness - Doris Stone, i don't think there is a connection with her and this family. I have traced her family back, and looked at marriage records, she never married and later on she moved out of the area, maybe she was just a friend.....although her family being school teachers etc and my families were quite poor so i don't know how they ended up friends?!

I have been trying to trace Henry's family for a few years now, well i bought the marriage cert back in 2006, it gives his fathers name as Thomas, but no other clues. i just seem to have hit a brick wall, there is only my Nana to ask, and she never really knew the smiths, and doesn't know anything, i just feel like i will never get any further back with this family which is such a shame :-(

Thanks mgnv for the map info, i actually live in Swinton, although i haven't been up to the area where St Augustines is for many many years.

Alison.

A look up of Dawson Street at http://www.streetmap.co.uk/ then selecting the Swinton/Pendlebury one gets an URL that begins with:

www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=378408&y=401651& etc

This embeds the arrowhead as an OS reference 378408,401651 to the nearest metre.
I can go to http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html and input these coordinates, then select the 1908-9 map.
Guessing Dawson St is 180m long, then abt 300m to E is St Augustine's church.
To make this guess, I go back to Streetmap, and zoom out a step to get to an OS map - the blue grid lines are 1km apart, so I can make my guess of the length of Dawson St.

We can convert the OS ref 378408,401651 to the Landranger style SD 78408 01651, or SD7801 to the nearest km.
Now I try a look up of http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/SD7801 and it gets me to a pic of St Augustines
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3151549

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/ gives:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1915
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FULFORD Ethel SMITH Henry Salford St Augustine Salford C14/4/74

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ gives:
Marriage: 18 May 1915 St Augustine, Pendlebury, Lancashire, England
Henry Smith - 28 Soldier Bachelor of 18 Dawson Street Pendlebury
Ethel Fulford - 26 Spinner Spinster of 18 Dawson Street Pendlebury
Groom's Father: Thomas Smith, (deceased), Carter
Bride's Father: John Fulford, Labourer
Witness: Annie Richards; Doris Helen Stone
Married by Licence by: J.B.S. Barratt Vicar
Register: Marriages 1913 - 1926, Page 37, Entry 74
Source: Manchester Central Library

What was Henry's age and occupation on the marriage certificate and do the witnesses give any clues, i.e. relatives?

Thanks Choccy,

Yes, Ethel Fulford married Henry Smith, and the address on the marriage cert was 18 Dawson Street, as yet, i have been unable to locate Henry on the 1911 census which is why i was interested to see who was at number 18.
I have nothing to go off with Henry other than the marriage cert, and on it, it says his father is Thomas Smith - carter - deceased. i have no idea what his mum is called, or if he had any siblings, so i'm really struggling with this Smith family.
Thanks again for the look up,

Alison

is this connected?


Marriages Jun 1915 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>Fulford Ethel Smith Salford 8d 89
Hodgkiss Ethel Young Salford 8d 89
>>>>Smith Henry Fulford Salford 8d 89
Young Jack L Hodgkiss Salford 8d 89

1911

National Archive Reference: RG14PN23971 RG78PN1381 RD465 SD1 ED40 SN105
Reg. District: Salford
Sub District: Pendleton
Parish: Pendlebury
Enum. District: 40
Address: 22 Dawson Street Pendlebury
County: Lancashire


SMITH, Josiah Head Married M 32 1879 Coal Miner Hewer At Face Below Ground Stoke on Trent Sff
SMITH, Mary Wife Married
11 years F 30 1881 Stoke on Trent Sff
SMITH, Nelly Daughter Single F 5 1906 School Pendlebury Lancs
SMITH, Fanny Daughter Single F 9 1902 School Pendlebury Lancs
SMITH, Mary Daughter Single F 1 1910 Pendlebury Lancs

1911

Reg. District: Salford
Sub District: Pendleton
Parish: Pendlebury
Enum. District: 40
Address: 18 Dawson Street Pendlebury
County: Lancashire


BARRICK, Joseph Ed Head Married M 36 1875 Coal Miner Hewer At Face Under Ground Atherton Lancs
BARRICK, Sarah Ann Wife Married
9 years F 28 1883 House Keeper Lancs Pendlebury
BARRICK, James Henry Son M 8 1903 School Lancs Pendlebury
BARRICK, Ivy Daughter F 6 1905 School Lancs Pendlebury
BARRICK, Lancs Son M 2 1909 Lancs Pendlebury
BARRICK, Norman Son M 0 1911 Lancs Pendlebury

Thanks for all your replies, i wanted to see who was living at number 18 Dawson Street, and if there are any Smiths or Fu;fords living on that street.

Thanks,

Alison.

Having done a quick search, there are 79 people showing up!
Who are you looking for?
Jan

There are 26 properties in that street in 1911

Several of is have subs to 1911, either on FMP or Ancestry.
However, you can do a free search if you go here - details will not be shown though:

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?x=773608942

put 's' in surname box, click on 'names beginning with', then put 'Dawson Street Pendlebury' in the Residential Place box. You can repeat this for all letters in turn.

Jan

You can search by address on Findmypast. Are you looking for someone in particular? I will have a look if you give a name.

Kath. x

Look first at:

http://www.1911census.co.uk

If you are searching for a particular address you can search by the following fields:
Street name
County/other
District/other
Registration sub district
Residential place