Genealogy Chat

I now have a new theory, I'd love your thoughts on ... I'm not sure what the 'normal' age was for enlistment in the army?

William George Harris enlisted in 1909 at age 22+. I'm wondering if perhaps, (because of family lore of an AWOL), Walter George Webb inlisted at around age 18-19 in 1906 and went awol. Then to avoid whatever punishment there might be for desertion, he re-enlisted under the alias of William George Harris but he married in 1912 Jane Lord under his own name of Walter George Webb and his children were given that surname.

Does anyone have any suggestions about where I can follow up on any of this? His grave stone says, W.G. Webb, served as Private W. G. Harris. Of course that information probably was given by his widow, Jane Lord Webb.

I've certainly not given up on this mystery, Thank you all so much for your suggestions and help. I need to put it aside for a while, as life is happening around me. I'll be back.

nancy :-)

Just a wild thought to consider - perhaps he was already married so used a different name when he married Jane Lord?

EDIT: another point to ponder - could William George Harris be the illegitimate son of a Walter George Webb (or the names vice versa)? That would certainly explain the use of different surnames (I've just been looking at a case a few days ago where a chap and his family regularly switched between his birth surname and that of his father).

Hi again, I did see that AWOL but chalked it up to something like arriving late to that course. It was the first I think after he joined. He went through his service under that one name of William George Harris. It certainly does get confusing when his wife and hail dream are listed with the Webb surname. I appreciate you taking the time to look at his records.

You have the family I'm leaning to as his family. On one of the census' he is listed as a labourer. I just feel that with the correct birth place and his father being a carpenter on two records this might be the correct family. I know right now there is no way to be sure of much! Perhaps he changed his name and occupation when he left home? Gosh, I just don't know where to look next. Why would he change his name? Perhaps his wife didn't know until after military service? Thoughts welcome :-)

According to an unsourced tree on Ancestry the young man on the 1901 above is the son of William Alfred Joseph Harris and Martha Elizabeth Weston.

Is this the family you refer to in 1901?

HARRIS, William A J Head Married M 40 1861 Carpenter & Joiner Lambeth, London
HARRIS, Martha E Wife Married F 44 1857 Bromham, Wiltshire
HARRIS, William H J Son Single M 16 1885 Carpenter & Joiner Chiswick, Middlesex
HARRIS, Harry Son Single M 10 1891 Hanwell, Middlesex

Piece: 1570 Folio: 19 Page: 29
Registration District: West Ham
Civil Parish: West Ham

Address: 20, Plaistow Grove, West Ham County: Essex

My slight reservations about this family is that when "our" William/Walter enlisted in 1909 he gave occupation as labourer and when he married in 1912 he was a carman.

Doesn't mean he couldn't have changed jobs and worth following through to either prove/disprove.

I've just had a read of his pension record and it is rather strange that it makes no mention of his dual identity.

Have re-checked newspapers for William George Harris (had previously looked for Walter) but still nothing.

According to the service records he did actually go AWOL in June 1909 but that was just for 2 days.

When he enlisted in February 1909 he was 22 years and 6 months, which would give a birth date of around August 1886.

Such and interesting story. This is what I've managed to find out from the service records I got last night. What a turn of events, at first I had him going awol to save a marriage and thinking his wife perhaps had a couple of children with another man. Now, this is what I think....

His service records give the name of William George Harris and show that he served 6 years with the Army Reserves Royal Berks Regt. He never went awol, but 3 years into his service he seems to have changed his name to Walter George Webb. I'm guessing that this was about the time of his marriage to Jane Lord. Why did he change his name, I have no idea. Was it a legal change, I doubt it but don't know. His pension records show his wife as Jane Webb and his first two children as George Webb and Harry Webb. He received his pension under his name, William George Harris. The record shows he was born in Chiswick, Middlesex, England. I searched records for him there and think I may have found him as William H. J. Harris. He has a brother named Harry and he named one of his children that name. I can't be sure but feel this is his family. Why the H J as initials who knows. On his marriage record to Jane Webb he gives his father's occupation as a carpenter. On the census record in Chiswick his father is a carpenter. I have a lot more research to do, but thanks you all so much for your suggestions and support. Suggestions still welcome! nancy :-)

Have sent Nancy a PM with details of possible living relatives.

Do keep us posted, Nancy. Meanwhile if I find anything relevant I'll put it on here.

I spoke with someone from work, and without knowing what you said, told me that in WW1 "the number one reason for awol is problems with marriage, they go home to try to fix things. Then usually regardless of outcome, they re-enlist because it's dangerous to be awol, much safer to be serving."

I was able to get service records last night, a little difficult to read, but I'll attempt to create a time line of service time and when children were conceived and born. This has taken a whole different turn. I'll keep you posted. I still would like to find info on Albert and Marjorie. I'm hoping that if Albert had sons I might find a male King descendant to take a Y-DNA test.

Now I need to sleep after working all night. :-)

I'd not thought of that, but it certainly sounds plausible. I did have the marriage for Walter and Jane but I appreciate you posting and asking because I may not have had it. I looked up the births of both Albert and Marjorie but it hasn't helped a lot. It indicated that Marjorie was born in Camberwell. I got Albert's middle initial H. and Marjories as E.R.

Since I live in the states I have to look up every town and district to see if it's in the general area. I really don't want to order birth records yet (I'm spending way too much $$$). The witnesses on the marriage record for Walter and Jane is Jane's sister, Ellen who took the three young children into her home, although they pretty much brought themselves up. Thanks again!

Do you already have this?

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Walter George Webb - Carman
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Age: 25
Spouse Name: Jane Lord
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 6 Oct 1912
Parish: Maida Hill (Emmanuel Church)
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: Walter George Webb - carpenter
Spouse Father Name: James Lord - (deceased) woodcutter
Register Type: Parish Register

Neither married before and address for both 26 Richmond Street.

Witnesses: Harry Dell and Nellie Dell.

I wonder if Walter George deserted because he found out Jane was having an affair and wanted to try to save his marriage? Just speculation ......

Have you used "Search Trees" to see if anyone else has them in their trees?

You could try searching for marriages and then subsequent children for Albert and Marjorie. Have you looked up the births of Albert and Marjorie on FreeBMD to get a better idea of when they were actually born?

Now, I would love to find out more about Henry James King. The third of Jane Lord Webb's 3 young children, who she pretty much disowned, was named James Henry. The plot thickens!

I've been searching for info on James Henry King b about 1877 to a Henry James King or his children he had with Jane Lord Webb King, Albert b about 1920 and Marjorie b. about 1923. I'm having almost no luck.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions offered.

Nancy :-)

Can't yet positively identify them in the 1911 ......

EDIT - think I've found them:

KING, Henry Head Married M 34 1877 Carman Box Makers Kilburn
KING, Esther Wife Married F 29 1882 Paper Sorter Marylebone

RG number: RG14 Piece: 54
Reference: RG14PN54 RG78PN2 RD1 SD2 ED13 SN293
Registration District: Paddington
Sub District: Paddington Central
Enumeration District: 13
Parish: Paddington

Address: 20 Clarendon Street Paddington W County: London

Married 9 years, no children

Possible death of first wife:

England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006
Name: Maria E King
Birth Date: abt 1880
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1918
Age at Death: 38
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 88

As Jane was named as King when Walter died 1917 then she and James must have already been together before his wife died (presuming these are the correct records).

The signature on this marriage is very similar to that of the 1919:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Henry James King - carman, os 25 Woodchester Street
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Age: 25
Spouse Name: Maria Esther Barton, of 25 Clarendon Street
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Dec 1901
Parish: Paddington St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: Henry James King - no occupation listed
Register Type: Parish Register

Maria Esther's father given as Joseph Barton, a woodchopper

Neither had been married before.

Witnesses: Jeremiah Collins and Alice Agnes Hall.

On the 1919 marriage that Kempina posted Henry James King was a carman, his father of the same name was a labourer. Jane's father was a firewood dealer - both father's were noted as deceased.

Jane and Henry James were both shown as widowed and the address for both was 31 Brindley Street.

The witnesses were Alice Bell and Harry Bell.

Yes, I didn't have that, thanks! Is there a way to find out if this Henry King had children from a previous marriage? So many questions, praying for more information.

:-)