Genealogy Chat

Thanks MarieCeleste, I will follow up both those posts. You are a mine of Information!

Christopher, you don't really need to join Ancestry if you just want to search and view public trees on that site. They have a spin-off site Mundia http://www.mundia.com/gb/

You have to register but it's completely free. When you've found who you're looking for in a tree you can view the whole tree and also make contact with the owner.

I think this is that address in 1901:

BRAY, William A Head Married M 57 1844 Laborer Dkyd Bedhampton, Hampshire
BRAY, Martha L Wife Married F 58 1843 Hayling, Hampshire

RG number: RG13 Piece: 978 Folio: 69 Page: 32
Sub District: North End and Buckland
Enumeration District: 3
Ecclesiastical Parish: All Saints

Address: 119, Dickens Road, Portsmouth County: Hampshire

Hi Patchem,

Thanks so much for the info. Presume you must do some sort of "Copy & Paste" to be able to post so much information.

As you have been so helpful, could I ask you to get the details of 119,Dickens Road, Landport in the 1901 Census?
This was the birth place of Esther Kathleen Foy on 17th.Sep 1899; Father : Patrick Joseph Foy, Mother: Mary Foy Formerly Ferren.

1911 England Census
George David Wyatt Age in 1911: 49 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Portsmouth, Hampshire, England Civil parish: Portsmouth County/Island: Hampshire Country: England
Street Address: 8 King Street, Landport, Portsmouth, Hampshire
Marital Status: Married Occupation: Compositor
Registration district: Portsmouth
Registration District Number: 90 Sub-registration district: Portsea and Landport
ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Household schedule number: 345 Piece: 5572
George David Wyatt 49
Alice Wyatt 49
George David Edwin Wyatt 23
James Arthur Tailor Wyatt 16
Annie Laura Dorothy Wyatt 10
Source Citation: Class: RG14; Piece: 5572; Schedule Number: 345; .

1911 England Census
: Joseph Moore Age in 1911: 55 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male
Birth Place: Portsmouth Civil parish: Portsmouth
County/Island: Hampshire Country: England
Street Address: 8 King Street, Portsea, Portsmouth, Hants
Marital Status: Married Occupation: Seamen Pensioner Registration district: Portsmouth
Registration District Number: 90 Sub-registration district: Portsea and Landport
ED, institution, or vessel: 25 Household schedule number: 10 Piece: 5585
Joseph Moore 55
Mary Moore 50
Eddie Carter 10
Source Citation: Class: RG14; Piece: 5585; Schedule Number: 10; .

Hi MarieCeleste,
Sorry it taken a while to get back to you. I wanted to do a bit more digging first, but not much success.

I think the "Ring" St. must be "King" St. There is, or rather was one of those in Portsea. Unfortunately G.R. does not seem to give the option of searching for addresses on the Census, unless you know all the codes, unlike FindMyPast/1911. Maybe I'll have to buy some credit for that!

Interesting what you say about Rose Ann Farren. As she would have been Mary Foy's child from her previous marriage, she too would have been my aunt. Maybe I should join Ancestry too so I can communicate with her family.

I did follow up Rose's daughter Elsie May Farren. The pattern continues, as it seems she is twice in the marriage register under the name Shiers and Farren. Also found her death in 1988, still in Portsmouth.

Hi Christopher, don't worry about the spacing - it's clear enough what the info is.

The father's name seems to confirm that the military record found was the correct one.

10 Chalton Street was the address they were at in 1911 so that tallies. I can't find a Ring Street in Portsea as I was going to see who was there in 1911. My guess is it was perhaps a friend's address that Mary used so they weren't seen to be living together before marriage.

I may have mentioned that someone on Ancestry has the family in their tree - they have just today added a photo of Rose Ann Farren. I suspect she may be the Sturrock witness if badly written.

Well, I have plenty to follow up now!
Copy of Marriage Cert. from Portsmouth Register office, 4th April 1910.

__________Age____________________ Residence___Father's name
Patrick Foy. 37 Bachelor. Dock Laborer. 10, Chalton st. Martin Foy._ Farm Laborer
_________________________________Landport
Mary Farren 35 Widow _______________8 Ring St.____ John Lonergan. Butcher
_________________________________ Portsea

Signed by Patrick Foy & The mark of Mary Farren in the presence of
(if I'm reading the writing correctly) William Auckland & Rosann Sturrock.

I have put the details as completed by the Registrar, so "Laborer" rather than "Labourer".
I have also edited this because I tried to use columns with spacing to line things up, but all the multiple spaces were left out, so it didn't look right. Hope the underscore works.

How annoying Christopher.

Do let us know what's on the marriage cert when it comes.

A Follow Up.

Today received a refund for my father's birth certificate from the GRO. In spite of my efforts to give them the information of the new surname found, they were unable to action it. I will now re-apply. Just a shame it has taken so long to get nothing!

However, post willing in this weather, I should receive my grandparents marriage cert. tomorrow, as suggested by MarieCeleste. I will keep you informed.

Just goes to show that you can't always take the info on certificates as 100% reliable. If Patrick referred to Mary as Minnie then that figures if he was the one giving the details to the registrar whereas when Mary went on her own she gave her "proper" name.

Re: the death record - the info re ages is only as good as what the informant told the registrar so again it's not 100% reliable. (When I registered my father's death I was obviously a bit upset and got a bit confused. I gave the correct day and month for his birthday but for the year I gave the year my mother was born. My blunder is preserved for posterity on the death register).

The ages on census aren't reliable either, they can deviate by quite a few years depending on how good someone's memory was. Many people didn't have a birth certificate or didn't have the literacy skills to read one. There wasn't perhaps quite so much emphasis on accurate ages because people weren't applying for benefits, etc. Even if someone knew exactly how old they were then the census wouldn't necessarily show it as such. If someone was born e.g. October 1890 then they would be 20 year old when the 1911 census was taken in April. However, when the census is transcribed the age of 20 is deducted from 1911 and then shows a birth year of 1891. (Sorry if I'm boring people with this but if someone reads it who didn't know then it's useful!)

It depends what you're hoping to find out from the death certificate, it's got a good chance to be him. Personally, if I was going to splash out on one certificate I'd be more inclined to get that 1910 marriage for hopefully the details of both their fathers (if they knew them). Of course, you can buy both!

The middle name Joseph is useful additional info - it might help track him in 1901.

Two Points:-

1. Have today received copy of birth certificate for Esther Kathleen FOY, father Patrick Joseph, mother Mary Foy, formerly Ferren. Yet 7 years later, mother of Minnie Florence was Minnie Ferren formerly Lonergen. The difference is that at the earlier time the "Informant" had the mark of Mary Foy, whereas the later one had "Informant" P. J. Foy and the mark of Minnie Ferren" Looks very much like MarieCeleste was spot on

2. The army records of Patrick would indicate that he was born approx. Sep. 1867.
There is a record of death of Patrick J. Foy in Portsmouth Oct-Dec 1927 Age 65. He should only have been 60 at that time by army records or 58/59 by 1911 Census. Is it worth applying for the Death cert to find out more?

Happened across a newspaper article:

The Portsmouth Evening News - 26 January 1903
"Personals"
A reward offered for the address of Patrick Foy, Portsea - apply 75 Manor Road.

Wonder if he'd done a bunk for a while - I'm having trouble finding him in 1901

In message from Chris, we're fairly confident that this is Patrick's military record:

British Army Service Records 1760-1915

First name(s): Patrick
Last name: FOY
Calculated year of birth: 1868
Parish of birth: Edenderry
Town of birth: Edenderry
County of birth: Kings (Offaly)
Age at attestation: 18 years 6 months
Attestation date: 22 March 1886
Attestation corps: Royal Artillery
Attestation soldier number: 54101
Discharge rank:
Discharge corps:
Discharge soldier number:
The National Archives reference: WO97 / 2828 / 36

Won't post all the details as Chris has them.

Patrick was discharged 1898 and it appears his father's name was Martin.

This is a possible for Mary's first marriage:

Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958

Name: Mary Lonergan
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1890
Registration district: Clonmel
Volume: 4
Page: 242
FHL Film Number: 101256

There is a William Farren on the page.

I'm pretty sure that the Minnie Foy with her sister on the 1901 is Mary Foy on the 1911.

This highly likely the sister's marriage:


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1891
Daysh George Robert Portsea 2b 812
Foster Henry Portsea 2b 812 <<
Lacey Emily Florence Portsea 2b 812
Lonergan Norah Portsea 2b 812 <<

Marriage of Mary's daughter:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1910
Farren Rose Portsmouth 2b 1123 <<
Hayden James H Portsmouth 2b 1123
Hoile Lily A M Portsmouth 2b 1123
SHIERS Edwin J Portsmouth 2b 1123 <<

Message from Chris, OK to post.

This is the 1911 for the family in question:

FOY, Patrick Head Married M 42 1869 Hospital Porter Kings Co Ireland
FOY, Mary Wife Married 14 years F 38 1873 Keeping House Tipperary Ireland
FOY, Esther Kathleen Daughter F 11 1900 School Portsmouth Hampshire
FOY, James Son M 8 1903 School Portsmouth Hampshire
FOY, Patrick Joseph Son M 6 1905 School Portsmouth Hampshire
FOY, Minnie May Daughter F 4 1907 School Portsmouth Hampshire
SHIERS, James Visitor Married M 23 1888 Labourer General Portsmouth Hampshire
SHIERS, Rose Visitor Married2 years F 21 1890 Tipperary Ireland


RG number: RG14 Piece: 5568
Reference: RG14PN5568 RG78PN253 RD90 SD3 ED8 SN95
Registration District: Portsmouth
Sub District: Portsea and Landport
Enumeration District: 8
Parish: Portsmouth

Address: 10 Chalton Street Landport Portsmouth County: Hampshire
__________________________________________________________________

Although the 1911 says married 14 years I think that's probably how long they'd been together and this is probably when they did marry:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1910
BALL Edward Charles Portsmouth 2b 956
Farren Mary Portsmouth 2b 956 <<
Foy Patrick Portsmouth 2b 956 <<
SQUIRES Annie Portsmouth 2b 956

I'd certainly recommend getting a copy of that marriage certificate to check out Mary's previous names. Also, there are some Tipperary baptisms on Ancestry so her father's name might help with those.

For consideration, as I cannot remember without writing things down, if Esther wrongly written as Elsie?
1901 England Census
Minnie Foy Age: 28 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Sister married Gender: Female Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Woolwich Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: London Country: England
Registration district: Woolwich Sub-registration district: Woolwich
ED, institution, or vessel: Engineer Barracks and Grand Depot Barracks
Household schedule number: 1 Piece: 569 Folio: 35 Page Number: 14
Norah Foster 26 wife Ireland wife of corporal RFA in S Africa
Minnie Foster 8 dau Hants
Rose Farrow 10 niece Ireland
Minnie Foy 28
Elsie Foy 1 niece Hants Portsmouth
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 569; Folio: 35; Page: 14.

Norah in 1891?
1891 England Census
Nora Foster Age: 19 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Boarder Gender: Female Where born: Clonmel, Ireland
Civil parish: Portsea Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark County/Island: Hampshire Country: England
Condition as to marriage: Married
Registration district: Portsea Island Sub-registration district: Kingston
ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Piece: 854 Folio: 122 Page Number: 51
William C Parfitt 38
Sarah A G Parfitt 34
Mary Jane Parfitt 15
Fanny G Parfitt 13
Rosena Parfitt 6
Agnes M Parfitt 3
Albert E Parfitt 8/12
Nora Foster 19
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 854; Folio: 122; Page: 51; GSU roll: 6095964.

Patchem, I think we're looking at the same family. Have just exchanged pms with Christopher re: my comments above.

I can't find any trace of any of them yet in 1901. Don't know if it's OK for us to post any records yet?

One thing I will post is this link which is one of many confirming that Minnie can be a pet name for Mary, as well as being a name in it's own right:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pacumber/nick.htm