Genealogy Chat

Gosh, you guys are amazing, thank you so much for your help!

I am 99% certain that the John Riley in who died at the end of 1901 is the right one, and he is listed as 56 at that point, so that ties up with an 1847/1848 birth. He has himself down as 54 in the 1901 census though but I guess the death certificate is more accurate? I can't find any other John Riley's of a similar age who died in the East London/Essex area between the 1901 census and the 5th August 1905 when his son Ernest married (I have a copy of his marriage certificate and his father is listed as John Riley, deceased, engine driver) though, so I'm pretty sure it has to be him. That'll be another £9.25 to confirm then - and that will presumably confirm his DOB, middle name if any and occupation?

I'm having the same frustrations that you guys are also finding with tracing any further back from John, there seem to be a lot of John Rileys being born in the Worksop/Warsop area of Nottinghamshire around that time, it's all very inconvenient :-D :-D Also adding to the confusion is that I've looked on a map and while I was assuming that Warsop was just a misspelling of worksop, there is a place called Warsop nearby, but it's nearer to Mansfield so might be in a different registration district. Is there a head exploding emoticon?!

I'm really very grateful for all your help, definitely lots of food for thought and avenues to pursue, not least his wife's maiden name (and if it is Mars, my dad will faint at the revelation that the oldest child was conceived out of wedlock!), an interesting side alley into the fate of his daughter May/Mary, his/their burials probably in West Ham, and the trail I really want to follow up, where he was and with whom before 1871! Best get cracking :-D

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

(the above will get you to website that Shelly mentioned)

Chris :)

Thanks Chris. Is it wrong that I had a little chuckle at the line "Register as a deceased online user and gain access to..." The pedant in me knows what they mean but it didn't read like that the first time I looked at it!

I can't find either Ernest or Elizabeth Riley on there and those are two I absolutely know who they are and when their deaths took place - at first I wondered if there was no body for Ernest as he was apparently killed at the docks (currently waiting for death certificate to verify what my dad tells me about this) but there isn't one for his wife either so I guess either the record isn't 100% complete or they weren't formally interned? It is lovely to see that some of my ancestors might actually have graves near enough for me to go and find, though - something for next summer, perhaps. Thanks for the web info Chris/Shelly - that's one that I hadn't been aware of :-)

Can see what you mean, lol.

Shelly is good for West Ham area, you could say she has 'the knowledge', lol.

Chris :)

Following the baptism I posted (bottom of page 1), marriage from FreeBMD. Posting it for when you decide right Riley's or not.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1843 (>99%)

Davidson Janet Mansfield 15 749
RILEY Henry Mansfield 15 749

And to prove that John Davison Riley is NOT your direct and relevant JR. I found him in the 1901. It proves the value of disproving what you think you have found and might stop you mixing him up at some point with the right JR.

1901 Census Record

Personal Information
Name John Davidson Riley
Relation to Head of Family Head
Age Last Birthday 56
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Colliery Belt Man Above Ground
Condition as to Marriage Married
Where Born Notts Warsop
Address 3 Sherwood Street
Civil Parish Warsop
Rural District
Town or Village or Hamlet Warsop
Ecclesiastical Parish Warsop With Sookholme
Parliamentary Borough or Division Bassetlaw
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District Warsop
Administrative County Nottinghamshire
Ward of Municipal Borough or Urban District Warsop
Language
Infirmity
Reference Information
Folio 24
Page 1
Piece 3131

Thanks again guys. Well, Ernest's death certificate arrived today and rumour #1 that he was killed in an accident at the docks doesn't seem to be correct - according to his death certificate, he died at home of pneumonia! Maybe the illness was as a consequence of an accident at the docks - it was August after all - but maybe it's just one of those random rumours which has appeared over the years. My gran would have been 3 at the time so I doubt she would have had clear memories of what happened.

The death certificate doesn't really tell me anything I don't already know - that still has him as 31 years old whereas I think he was 30, the only Ernest Riley I can find who fits the bill was born in first quarter of 1881 (he also has himself down as 25 on his marriage in 1905). The only slightly confusing thing is that it has the address of death as 11 Downsell Road, Leyton - I went to check the 1911 census and yes, they are listed as living there at that time. But there is also another family listed as living there, and looking at the original handwritten entry, he had actually written the address as Leyton Road, Stratford and this has been crossed out and in a different handwriting 11 Downsell Rd is written in. Does this mean that he filled the form in before the official date and they had moved by that time? Is it normal for two households to be living in a typical victorian terrace?

I think I'm going to have to get hold of his birth certificate next (I'm sure he is the early 1881 birth even though he and his wife seem to think he was 1880). Thanks :-D

Hi Alison.

Sorry no fresh ideas from me. Maybe one of the others will come up with an idea or suggestion.

Jill

Hi

I expect you have checked this out already but Downsell Road (E15 aka Stratford postcode) is a turning joining/coming off Leyton Road.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=538606&y=185713&z=110&sv=downsell+road&st=6&tl=Map+of+Downsell+Road,+London,+E_15&searchp=ids.srf&map

Also is it possible that they were living in a property on Leyton Road just prior to Census night but moved after they received the form (maybe having started/completed it before and not expecting anything to change) to a property round the corner on Downsell Road? Not sure how the delivery/collection of the actual forms worked in 1911.

As to whether two families would have been living in one Victorian terraced house - that is quite likely. I have family in a property in Hackney in 1911, and as I was struggling to connect the Head to any parents, when I looked again (at the address rather than the person) I found them at the same address! So they could all have been "together" - but completed 2 Census returns OR they rented separate parts of the same house and my great grandfather and his father (gg grandfather) completed Census returns as heads of their own families. Also lots of properties on Victorian terraces are now divided into flats - and now have the benefit of being flats 'A' or 'B' etc

EDIT: Just on the 1880 / 1881 point - if he was born late in 1880 (December) then he could easily have been registered in the first quarter (Jan/Feb/Mar) 1881. Not sure if anyone else has answered that for you.

Would say at the moment, that the Birth Cert. is the way to go!...

Chris :)

Alison - the record you want to check out is this one:

1911 England Census Summary Books about Riley Mr
Name: Riley Mr
Number of Males: 4
Number of Females: 3
Household schedule number: 121
Street Address: 11 Downsell Road
Civil parish: Leyton
Ecclesiastical parish: Leytonstone Holy Trinity Harrow Green
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Residence Year: 1911
Registration district: West Ham
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration district: South Leyton
Sub-Registration District Number: 8
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 512

It's free on Ancestry right now, and you can click on the image and easily page thru the book.
Downsell Rd ran 2-128 (evens) and 1-115 (odds). Apart from 2 houses that look like they're formally divided
(54, 54a & 70, 70a) there's only 10 houses with 2 families: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 15 & 6, 10, 12.
My guess is the low #s are probably older houses of a difft design that allowed multiple familes more readily.
(Whenever the landlord could get 2 rents, he would.)
Incidentally, I seem to recall that London's leading landlord at that time,
with abt 10% of rentals, was the C of E.

Thank you for that, you are all so helpful :-D I told dad today that his grandad didn't die in an industrial accident after all, but died of pneumonia at home and he was really surprised as he says he distinctly remembers his mum telling him that...but she had only just turned 3 so wouldn't necessarily remember or have been told the truth (of course it's always possible that my dad doesn't remember correctly either :-D )

OK so next step is to get Ernest's birth certificate - even though his marriage and death certificate had him as earlier than 1881, I'm absolutely certain he is the first quarter of 1881 listed earlier. How many other Ernest Riley's in Essex/East London, father John who was an engine driver/fitter, with a sister who married someone called Palmer can there be?! Hopefully that will give me a better trail with his mother's maiden name.

I've also had a look at the 1861 census and think I may have found his father John there too, there is a 16-year old John Riley as a lodger working as a carter on a farm with a family called Bayohaw (bet that's a mis-spelling!). On the findmypast listing it says place of birth Worksop but looking at the handwritten document I think it says Warsop so it does tie in - so maybe he got fed up doing farm labour and headed to London at some point within the next 10 years to go and work on the railways - hence lodging in the Hudson Buildings as a Locomotive stoker in 1871. Or alternatively, is this the other John Riley who JustDinosaurJill found above, but then disproved, as he was also born Warsop and had moved out of his Riley family home by the 1861 census. *head explodes*

Thanks again. Fun this, innit :-D

Ok, Ernest's birth certificate ordered - fingers crossed it gives enough information to pick up the scent again!

His wife Elizabeth's death certificate also arrived today, she died in the West Ham Union Infirmary in 1914, leaving 5 orphaned kids, one of whom was my nan. I wonder what became of them all - another line of enquiry to follow up!

Oooh exciting news - the birth certificate is here, and JustDinosaurJill you were quite right - mother's maiden name is Mars :-D :-D :-D

So now I need to get the marriage certificate for John Riley and Mary Mars, to see if that has any info about John's father, yes?

Based on marriage 1872 less 18 years I figure she was born around or before 1854.

This is the only 1851 which makes sense for having been born East London. I don't know London geography but the other two entries were for Mary A 1851 b Liverpool/living Liverpool and Mary 1846 b Ireland/living Kensington

1851 Census Household Record
Household Information
Address Church Street
Parish West Ham
District West Ham, West Ham
Administrative County Essex
Householder 1
Name John Mars
Age 43
Estimated Year of Birth 1808
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Bricklayer
Birth Place Romford
Birth County Essex
Householder 2
Name Catherine Mars
Age 35
Estimated Year of Birth 1816
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation
Birth Place Romford
Birth County Essex
Householder 3
Name William Mars
Age 4
Estimated Year of Birth 1847
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Romford
Birth County Essex
Householder 4
Name Mary Ann Mars
Age 3
Estimated Year of Birth 1848
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Romford
Birth County Essex

POSSIBLE but don't accept it's right

1861 Census Household Record
Household Information
Address Little Totham Hill
Parish Little Totham
District Maldon, St Peter
Administrative County Essex
Householder 1
Name Jhon Granger
Age 38
Estimated Year of Birth 1823
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Miller
Birth Place ...
Birth County Essex
Householder 2
Name Sarah Jean Granger
Age 35
Estimated Year of Birth 1826
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation Miller Wife
Birth Place Maldon
Birth County Essex
Householder 3
Name James ... Granger
Age 3
Estimated Year of Birth 1858
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Millers Son
Birth Place Little Braxted
Birth County Essex
Householder 4
Name Sarah Catherin Granger
Age 9
Estimated Year of Birth 1852
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Occupation Miller Daughter
Birth Place Little Totham
Birth County Essex
Householder 5
Name Martha Jane Emblston
Age 18
Estimated Year of Birth 1843
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Nurse Maid
Birth Place Raleigh
Birth County Essex
Householder 6
Name Sarah Spells
Age 53
Estimated Year of Birth 1808
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Cook
Birth Place Tillingham
Birth County Essex
Householder 7
Name Mary Mars
Age 14
Estimated Year of Birth 1847
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Groom
Birth Place Chilham
Birth County Essex

The 1871 is the one already posted. I think to be 100% certain the marriage cert is needed. I can't find the marriage on FamilySearch. Will be back later. Going to deal with a headache which just won't go.

xxJ

Thanks Jill - yes it's fascinating isn't it! It seems very likely that they are the right family in the 1851 census - I'm curious to know what happened to the Mars family in the 1861 census, the parents John and Catherine disappear completely but reappear in the 1871 census back in West Ham - it's got to be the same couple as the names and ages are right and he is still a bricklayer. I can't even find anything similar working on variants!

I might have to try a process of elimination on the Mary Mars in the 1861 census - although the age is right, Lt Totham is in the most rural of backwaters up the other end of Essex to West Ham - which was really east London. On the 1851 census her birthplace is listed as Romford (although on the 1881 I think it is somewhere else East London ish), the Mary Mars in the 1861 census it says "Chilham" but there isn't a Chilham - looking at the original text I think that says Witham, which is the nearest town to Little Totham so would make more sense for someone local to have found the place nearby to work as a groom...but then looking back to the 1851 census I can't see who that would be.

I have a feeling this is one of those ones where the spelling of the surname has morphed over the years :-D I have ordered the marriage certificate anyway so hopefully that will give me better leads for both John Riley and Mary Mars :-D

Thanks for your help!

Hi Alison, I'd look for the Mars family this evening but I've been undercoating paint this week and as much as I've tried to avoid the side effects, I've not been successful so whatever I do, I just can't think straight and the paracetamol isn't working.

Been wracking the little grey cells with variations but wondered if a different name altogther was put down by the enumerator. So have you tried March or Marshall, Morse, Mers, Murs (playing with accents here)?

As a surname it is certainly interesting. Sadly I'm not suggestion any family connection but read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_family

This is a surname website and gives some idea of where the name originated. It mentions possible variations. http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Mars

As you already know, I like to try to disprove stuff because I think that way you have a chance of being right allowing for the fact that all records have not been transcribed. I heard this bit of Sherlock Holmes when I was very young and it stuck with me as being incredibly sensible and it's helped me throughout my life plus my own take on it of 'just because it seems obvious, doesn't mean that it is - but it might be' :-D

"You will not apply my precept," he said, shaking his head. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? We know that he did not come through the door, the window, or the chimney. We also know that he could not have been concealed in the room, as there is no concealment possible. When, then, did he come?"
The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four (Doubleday p. 111)

1861
MARNES, John Head Married M 32 1829 Bricklayer
Millhead, Essex (says West Ham!)
MARNES, Catherine Wife Married F 44 1817 Essex (Plaistow)
MARNES, William Son M 13 1848 (West Ham) Bricklayer
MARNES, Mary Daughter F 12 1849 (Plaistow)
MARNES, Thomas Son M 5 1856 (West Ham)
MARNES, James Son M 2 1859 (West Ham)
Piece: 1055
Folio: 96
Page: 16
Registration District: West Ham
Civil Parish: All Saints Westham
Municipal Borough:
Address: 1, ..., Frances Street James Place, All Saints Westham
County: Essex

(can see above, had to check Birth places)

Chris :)

(good news on Cert., well done!)


1841 (looks Mars on image?)

MARR, William M 50 1791 Ireland
MARR, Bridget F 45 1796 Ireland
MARR, John M 25 1816 Essex (Bricklayer)
MARR, Elizabeth F 15 1826 Essex
MARR, James M 9 1832 Essex
BOXALL, Robert M 70 1771
BOXALL, Sarah F 60 1781
BOXALL, William M 40 1801
Piece: 323
Book/Folio: 5
Page: 5
Registration District: West Ham
Civil Parish: West Ham
Municipal Borough:
Address: Church Street, West Ham, Church Street
County: Essex

Neat find Chris. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Only thing that didn't make sense was John's age on the 1861.

In 1851 he's 43 (1808) - roughly ten years older than Catherine 35 (1816)

and on 1861 he's lost twenty years - 32 (1829) with Catherine 44 (1817).

I looked at both images and that's what they both seem to say but I had a really close look at the way John's age is written. Although there is a bit of smudging, comparing it to the 3 shown in the Enumerator's total and another 5 on the image, I think it's 52 not 32 which puts him back his twenty years.

Chris has pulled a real rabbit out of the proverbial hat to find this one and he is spot on.

Yes indeed he has, Jill :-D. The pair of you are such good sleuths, thank you both very much :-D

I look forward to receiving their marriage certificate to see if that helps to confirm and pick up the trails knowing they are definitely the right ones...then soon it starts getting trickier as we start to get back before official records :-0

Thanks again for your help Chris and Jill (and everyone else who has contributed too!)