Genealogy Chat

Hi, I should be very grateful for help to find out whether it was a requirement to provide a copy of a birth certificate at any stage when someone was applying for USA naturalization between 1912 and 1920. An ancestor of mine lodged a Declaration of Intention in 1912 and became a naturalized USA citizen in 1919.

Unfortunately there is a discrepancy in the date of birth recorded in the relevant papers relating to my ancestor and I am trying to clarify whether or not it was possible to give inaccurate information. This ancestor has proved very elusive during his lifetime!!

Regards,
Susan

It obviously couldn't be a requirement - there are just too many people who didn't have one for whatever reason - e.g., in 1912, a 50 y old Irishman was born before civil registration began - in 1912, I'll bet there were parts of Canada and the USA where civil registration had yet to start. Even if he was recorded, there were places where all records were destroyed - fires in Chicago and Atlanta are 2 US examples - Hiroshima is a more modern example. Even today, though they may ask for one, they must have the power to proceed without it.

Many thanks for your valuable information. I was 99.9% certain that this was my ancestor - despite birth date difference and a slight middle name change. He settled in Los Angeles in 1911. Just another thought, perhaps you might know if he would have been able to leave England and enter the USA by giving the same inaccurate information and were passports required as early as June, 1911?

I would worry if his birthday was wrong - I wouldn't be too concerned if the year was out, though.

Have you found him on the UK 1911 or the US 1910/20/30 censuses?

I'm not sure abt passports pre-WW1 - my guess is they weren't necessary.
I think the need for a passport to enter parts of the British Empire is even less likely - this would include Canada. It isn't necessary for a Canadian resident to have a passport to enter the US, even today, although entry as an immigrant is different.

If you've got him on latter US censuses, you can see if he's started applying for, or has been granted, US citizenship, or is still an alien. Naturalization records from some states are available online, alyhough it reads like you know this.

It's still worth checking if he has a UK passport, though.

You could explore the National Archives to see if one was issued

http://goo.gl/zpdK7

His date of birth was wrong - actual birth was December 1868 in Oxford, named John Samuel Lowe and d.o.b. given on USA Declaration of Intention was given as 26th August, 1872 born in Oxford and named John Stanley Lowe. He was granted USA citizenship in 1919. I found him on the UK 1911 Census and also on the US 1920 Census. On both of these registers he was named "John Stanley Lowe". However, I could not find him on the US 1930 Census. He was a passenger on "the Baltic" departing from Liverpool and arriving in New York on the 26th June 1911. On the ship records he gave his closest relative in England as being "Mrs. Lowe of 153 Walton Street, Oxford". This was the address of John Samuel Lowe's wife and children so this is why I am 99.9% sure that "John Samuel Lowe" and "John Stanley Lowe" are one and the same person!

I will certainly explore the National Archives re a possible Passport.

Most grateful for your suggestions and observations. My search for this man has been very complicated over a very long period of time and I hope that eventually I will find all the missing pieces to the puzzle!

Regards,
Susan

Through the help of MGNV and Detective I have now discovered that passports were not mandatory for British travellers until 1914.

Susan

Susan, I'm thinking you don't know his actual b'day, and all you've seen is the GRO index entry:

Births Dec 1868 (>99%)
LOWE John Samuel Oxford 3a 611

This just indicates his birth was registered in the quarter ending in Dec 1868.
One normally has 6 wks to rego a birth, so if the full 6 wks was used for an Aug 26 birth, it would be rego'ed in early Oct, i.e., the Dec quarter.
Actually, a birth can be rego'ed years after it happened - it needs a higher and higher approval as time goes by, eventually needing approval from the Registrar General for England.
It also needs a qualified informant, so if 50y has passed, and everyone present is dead, it can never be rego'ed.


Magnify 4 clicks, then save image
http://archive.org/stream/14thcensusofpopu106unit#page/n724/mode/1up
[addy=1840 Highland Ave, (Santa Monica - between the Pacific Coast Highway & Venice Beach) occup= Salesman (Bonds)]
http://archive.org/stream/californiacensus00reel137#page/n339/mode/1up
[addy=954 N Croft Ave (5km S of top of Laurel Canyon) Gert (div) & Marjie]

mgnv. Many thanks for the copies of relevant entries in the 1920 Census and the 1930 Census. Most helpful.
Whilst I note that John Stanley Lowe appears to be married to Gertrude Lowe do you know whether it would it be possible for me to access USA marriages in California relating to this couple between 1911 and 1920? I seem to be drawing a blank through Worldwide Ancestry membership but perhaps I am not accessing correctly. I have noted that Gertrude travelled back from a visit to England, arriving back in the USA on the 25th August 1926 and at that time it was stated that she was naturalized by virtue of her husband's naturalization so presumably she must have been married to someone with USA citizenship at some time. John did not always marry when he described himself as married!!
Many thanks for your observations regarding birth registration. However, John Samuel Lowe's birth registration in December 1968 is nearly 4 years earlier than the d.o.b. given for John Stanley Lowe in the US - 26th August, 1972. He left a number of smokescreens in England and I wonder if this is possibly yet another one!!
Regards,
Susan

Well, sometimes there are free online records that Ancestry don't have - check out:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_STATES

You might also try drilling down at:
http://cyndislist.com/us/

NB I think John & Gertie were marr'd - note in 1930, she says she's divorced.
I don't think it's another smokescreen - I just think he wanted to appear younger.
In 1901, the Canadian census gives the full d.o.b. In 1911, only the month and year appear.
On enlistment in WW1, their online attestation papers also give their d.o.b.
So in my own research, and with helping on the boards, I've seen quite a number of people give false d.o.b's, but I've noticed that they rarely change their b'day, just their y.o.b.

Course, there are some folk who never give a straight answer - I've got censuses and m/d.certs for my gg gran - 7 ages altogether - at least 5 are wrong - there's no b.cert or baptism for her, but the ages she gives are mutually incompatible, except maybe the first 2.

The websites you have kindly given have proved very informative. Still haven't found a John & Gertie marriage but found a previous marriage for Gertie in 1907. At that time her name was Gertrude Radford and she married a William H. Carlin. Appears she was widowed in 1908 so this marriage could have given her USA citizenship rather than a marriage to John.

I feel I am beginning to understand the complexities of John and his life in the US now. His life in the UK has also proved difficult to follow to say the least!

Very grateful for your help.

Since you've got Ancestry access, I'll leave Gertie's 1910 to you - 1910's a lot tougher for me (a non-subscriber) than any other census.
The 1910 does have questions on citizenship.

I have looked at the US 1910 Census - no sign of Gertie or William H. Carlin but believe I have found her in the UK on the UK 1911 census with John. I am now searching for details of a ship taking her from the US back to the UK sometime between her 1907 marriage and the 1911 Census but so far have had no joy. She could have travelled with the surname of "Carlin", "Radford" or "Lowe". I have found details of her travelling back to the US in June, 1912 under the name of Gertrude Carlin and on John Lowe's passenger list when he travelled to the US in late June 1912 the person named for his journeys end in Los Angeles was Gertrude Carlin.

Is this Gertrude's death in California? Father's surname was Radford:

LOWE GERTRUDE LILIAN 01/01/1876 RADFORD F REST (OTHER) LOS ANGELES(19)

Margee, Thanks for the information re Gertrude Lilian Lowe but unfortunately this Gertrude was born in the US and my Gertrude was born in Putney near London, UK.

Regards, Susan

But on that record her place of birth is listed as Rest (other) which is what they say for those born in England.
It certainly looks like her with father's surname Radford.

Just realized I hadn't c&p'd the whole thing. Date of death wasn't on it:

LOWE GERTRUDE LILIAN 01/01/1876 RADFORD F REST (OTHER) LOS ANGELES(19) 07/25/1955 79 yrs

Does this make any sense to you?

.William W. Lowe, b. April 1866/7 GA, m. (1) ?, b. Nova Scotia?; (2) 1901 to Gertrude Lilian Radford B:1 Jan 1876 Alabama/AL/AL D: 25 Jul 1955 Los Angeles, California (with father 1880; 1900 Erath Co., TX Census Pct. 5, William widowed, salesman dry goods, with brother Isaac; 1910 Erath Co., TX Census, Gertrude with 4 of 5 children living; 1920 Erath Co., TX Census Pct. 1)

From this site:

http://sites.google.com/site/southerndynasties/family-files/mcconnell/william/elizabeth

This is the Gertrude who travelled back to USA with her daughter Marjorie in 1926, As you can see she says she's divorced.

1930 United States Federal Census
about Gertrude Lowe Name: Gertrude Lowe
Gender: Female
Birth Year: abt 1880
Birthplace: England
Race: White
Home in 1930: Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California
View Map
Marital Status: Divorced
Immigration Year: 1905
Relation to Head of House: Head
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Birthplace: England

Household Members: Name Age
Gertrude Lowe 50
Marjorie Lowe 16

Many thanks Margee for your useful info. The Gertrude Lowe who travelled back to the USA in 1926 with her daughter, Marjorie, is, I believe, the Gertrude I am tracking. Her "husband"? named as John Stanley Lowe was living with Gertrude and Marjorie in Los Angeles at the time of the 1920 Census. So far I cannot find a marriage for Gertrude and John Stanley either in England or America. In the UK 1911 Census Gertrude was named as Gertrude Lowe, wife of John Stanley Lowe but Gertrude called herself Gertrude Carlin (her previous married name) when travelling back to the USA in June 1912 and later in June 1912 John Stanley Lowe was joining Gertrude Carlin in Los Angeles.

At present my gaps that I am trying to fill are:

When did Gertrude travel back to the UK from USA after her marriage to William H. Carlin and before the 1911 UK Census when, I believe she lived with John Stanley Lowe? I need this information to prove that Gertrude Carlin and Gertrude Lowe are one and the same person in 1911.

Was there a marriage between Gertrude Lilian Carlin or Radford? and John Stanley Lowe either in the UK or USA? This is more likely to have been in USA as when he left England in 1911 he described Gertrude Carlin as "Friend" and his closest relative in England his wife, Mrs. Lowe whom he married in Oxford in 1891.

Where was John Stanley Lowe in 1930 and where and when did he die?

The twists and turns of John Stanley Lowe's life is proving confusing, fascinating and frustrating.
Regards, Susan

I have now discovered that Gertrude Carlin travelled from New York to Liverpool as a 1st Class passenger on the Mauretania arriving in Liverpool in April 1908. She was described as a US Citizen aged 28years. This followed the death of her husband William H. Carlin on the 15th January 1908. Her surname had been wrongly transcribed on Ancestry "Curlin".