Genealogy Chat

I have two marriage certificates, info as follows,
Bessie Belcher aged 21 married Alexander McKay on 10 January 1891 in the parish of St Margaret Middlesex. Father Caleb Belcher a sawyer
Lizzie Belcher aged 21 married David William Froud on 18 January 1891 in West Hanney Berkshire. Father Caleb Belcher a sawyer.
Bessie had a son, Murdoch Alexander McKay born 4 November 1891 in West Hanney, birth registered by his grandmother Jane Belcher.
Now taken from the 1891 census i have,
Lizzie Froud born 1869 in East Hanney, husband David, daughter Lizzie B Froud born 1891 (aged 7 months)
Bessie McKay born 1870 in West Hanney, husband Alexander McKay.
In 1911 Caleb and Jane Belcher of West Hanney have two grandchildren with them, Alick Ma Key born 1892 West Hanney and Charles Froud born 1892 West Hanney. So obviously there is a link between Caleb and the Froud/McKay families.
The question is did Caleb have two daughters one called Bessie and the other called Lizzie, OR did Lizzie/Bessie lead a double life!
This is driving me bonkers so any help gratefully received :-D

where is West Hanney??

OK found it - 1881 census

1881 census - household transcription
Person: BELCHER, Caleb
Address: Church Street, West Hanney

BELCHER, Caleb Head Married M 34 1847 General Lab
West Hanney
Berkshire
BELCHER, Jane Wife Married F 34 1847
West Hanney
Berkshire
BELCHER, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 13 1868 Domestic Serv Unemployed
East Hanney
Berkshire
BELCHER, George Son Single M 11 1870 Plough Boy
West Hanney
Berkshire
BELCHER, Leah Daughter Single F 8 1873 Scholar
West Hanney
Berkshire
BELCHER, Kate Daughter Single F 6 1875 Scholar
West Hanney
Berkshire
BELCHER, Frederick Son Single M 4 1877
West Hanney
Berkshire
BELCHER, Prince Son Single M 1 1880
West Hanney
Berkshire V

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
1288 Folio:
72 Page:
13 Registration District:
Wantage

Civil Parish:
West Hanney Municipal Borough:
Address:
Church Street, West Hanney County:
Berkshire

Could there be 2 cousins called Caleb who both had daughters around the same age Bessie and Lizzie. Have you looked for 2 births

With the English naming pattern this is possible

1901 for ref

1901 England Census
about Caleb Belcher
Name: Caleb Belcher
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Belcher
Gender: Male
Where born: West Hanney, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: West Hanney
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: West Hanney
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Wantage
Sub-registration district: Wantage
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 159
Piece: 1136
Folio: 86
Page Number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Caleb Belcher 56
Jane Belcher 35
Frederick G Belcher 23
Alma Belcher 16
Walter Belcher 14
Lizzie Belcher 9
Alix Belcher 8


Andy

My problem is that i can only find one Caleb Belcher in the Hanneys.... I have found two birth records that could be interesting, one for Elizabeth Belcher born 1866 and another for Elizabeth Mary born 1867, they are both in Wantage registration district, which i think would be correct.... however i have found an Elizabeth M Belcher b1867 on the 1871 census in the Wantage registration district, born in Harwell, Father George Belcher. The only other record i can find is for a Lizzie Belcher b1868 in Hanney, Father Caleb...I did find another Caleb Belcher in Berkshire, he was born c1822 in West Hanney, however he lived in Reading and wasn't a sawyer :-(
I am beginning to think i will never solve this puzzle :-(

This could be the Charles living with Caleb and Jane in 1911. In 1901 this family are living next door but one to Caleb:

1901 England Census
about Charles Froud
Name: Charles Froud
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James Froud
Mother's name: Lizzie Froud
Gender: Male
Where born: West Hanney, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: West Hanney
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: West Hanney
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Wantage
Sub-registration district: Wantage
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 161
Piece: 1136
Folio: 86
Page Number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
James Froud 33 carpenter same occupation as David in 1891
Lizzie Froud 33 b West Hannay
Charles Froud 8
James Froud 7
Kate Froud 2
Elsie Froud 1

Yes, PP, Bessie and Lizzie are both used for Elizabeth but these two both appear on the 1891 census, Bessie (as Bessie McKay) in Westminster and Lizzie as Froud (Troud on Ancestry) in West Hannay.

Alexander and Bessie seem to disappear after 1891.

Interestingly, the other marriage on the same page as Alexander and Bessie is for a Duncan McKay and an Ann Bond - can't find them at all!

Irene, who are the witnesses on the two marriage certs?

Have you considered the possibility that one of them, Bessie most likely, was illegitimate, and recorded under a different surname for the 1871 and 1881 censuses. She may then have been recognised by the belchers and adopted that surname.

There is an Annie Bessie Rose who might fit, but is born in East Hanney.

familysearch have this submitted record (according to freebmd Caleb married Jane Breakspeare):

Lizzie Belcher Pedigree
Birth: 13 JAN 1868 East Hanney, Berkshire, England

Christening:
Death: 1948

Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: Caleb Belcher Family
Mother: Jane Sheakspear

KenSe, this seems to be Annie Bessie Rose in 1891 - still with her parents:

1891 England Census
about Annie B L Rose
Name: Annie B L Rose
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William H Rose
Gender: Female
Where born: East Hanney, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Pyrton
Ecclesiastical parish: Pyrton
Town: Pyrton
County/Island: Oxfordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Henley
Sub-registration district: Watlington
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1159
Folio: 8
Page Number: 9
Household Members: Name Age
William H Rose 59
Emma Rose 48
Annie B L Rose 22
Emily V Saunders 15

Thanks for all your answers folks, sorry not to get back to you earlier, but have been to watch football :-)
The witnesses to Lizzie and David's wedding were George Belcher and Elizabeth Froud, for Bessie and Alexander its Emma Birch and George Barron ( Barron not clearly written though, so could be something similar)
As i said above young Murdoch's birth was registered by Jane Belcher, and it clearly describes her as the grandmother... Bessie McKay just seems to disappear after 1891, although i can still find Lizzie Froud, although her husband changes his name from David to James :-S
I did wonder if one of the girls was fathered outside of the marriage and had taken the name of Belcher, but so far i cant find anyone that would fit :-(
A real mystery!

Yes Potty that seems to rule out Bessie Rose.

There was an elder sister in the 1971 census - Annie R (Ann Rebecca on the BMD Index). She is not with the family in 1881 (she is a servant at Cholsey) but I can't find an obvious death or marriage for her, nor can I see her in later censuses. Is it possible she took on the name of Bessie?

There was another Caleb Belcher born,1849 in Portsea I Hampshire. Caleb Wright Belcher .....he died in 1885 in Burton Staffordshire..maybe Bessie belonged to him?

1871 census for Caleb and family 1871 England Census
about Caleb Belcher
Name: Caleb Belcher
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Belcher
Gender: Male
Where born: West Hanney, Berkshire, England
Civil parish: East Hanney
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wantage
Sub-registration district: Wantage
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 149
Piece: 1268
Folio: 77
Page Number: 24
Household Members: Name Age
Caleb Belcher 23
Jane Belcher 24
Annie R Belcher 4
Lizzie Belcher 3
Alfred G Belcher 1


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Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1268; Folio: 77; Page: 24; GSU roll: 827848.

Source Information:

Ancestry.com. 1871 England Census [database on-line]. Provo

1881 1881 England Census
about Caleb Belcher
Name: Caleb Belcher
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Belcher
Gender: Male
Where born: West Hanney, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: East and West Hanney
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England

Street Address: Church Street
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: General Lab

Registration district: Wantage
Sub-registration district: Wantage
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1288
Folio: 72
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
Caleb Belcher 34
Jane Belcher 34
Elizabeth Belcher 13
George Belcher 11
Leah Belcher 8
Kate Belcher 6
Frederick Belcher 4
Prince Belcher 1


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Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 1288; Folio: 72; Page: 13; GSU roll: 1341313.

Source Information:

Hi Guys, i have found a marriage record for a Bessie McKay in 1894 in St George Hanover Square, husband Robert William Menham. Found this couple on both the 1901 census and on the 1911 census, in 1901 Bessie is Elizabeth and gives place of birth as Wantage, however in 1911 she is Bessie again and her birth place is listed as West Hanney Wantage Berkshire, surely too much of a coincidence? I think i will get the marriage cert for this couple to see if it is 'my' Bessie....
It certainly looks as if there were two different women though....
And thanks for the suggestion about Annie R, will try to follow that up too.
Thanks for all your suggestions :-)

Lizzie = Elizabeth Belcher

Bessie = Annie or Leah or Kate


I think they are sisters and Caleb is the same person/father

finding Annie ,Leah and Kate in the birth and marriage or death records to see who's who :)

who did Emily Belcher belong to ? shes in Hanney a servant aged 13..

I dont see how the two marriages can be the of same person 2 weeks apart and in another county...

I have found Annie Belcher, looks like she married a William Fisher in 1889.
I think Leah died in 1903, so that leaves Kate, however i have found her on the 1891 census in London employed as a servant.
I think Emily belonged to Daniel Belcher...
I am starting to think that a short spring break in Oxfordshire might be called for, then i can take a look at the parish records for West Hanney, looks like thats my only chance of finding out whether Caleb had two daughters called Elizabeth, although if one of them was illegitimate the Father may not be named :-(
Once again, thanks for all your suggestions :-)