Genealogy Chat

Updated and closed 26 April


There I was thinking I had done some good, accurate stuff on ancestors. And along comes the 1911 census which asks the questions

"How many live births?"
How many still living?
How many dead?

So I've had my mother's paternal grandmother in 1911 for some time. And this threw up three children born and died who I did not have any record of. And trawl as I might I have not been able to even guess.

So now the 1911 Wales census is available on Ancestry to subscribees and yesterday I was downloading to my heart's content. Only to find my mother's maternal grandmother had two that I had no record of; my husband's great grandparents .. one; his other great grandparents ...one; A great uncle one when I though he had no children at all!

And there's no way of solving these mysteries unless you just send off for dozens of possible birth certificates....


aaaaagggghhhh :-(

Maybe parish records could help or perhaps a chat with a friendly registrar in the actual area.
I had great help from one office in Wales, when I couldn't find a death of a woman just a few years prior to the 1911 census.
I gave them all the information I had, ... last known child, address and husband's name and they came up trumps.

Not bad considering I was looking for a DAVIES in the south Wales valleys.

Then there are those known to be alive in 1911 and not found.

One family declares one child born alive and still living.....but he is nowhere to be found. I even posted a thread asking for help, ...he was only a baby, but still haven't found him.

Gwyn

It sounds so easy...but the names I am searching are very common..

Hyde (you would not believe how many of these there are)...Hunt...Llewellyn (in Wales!!)

And even if I could narrow it down it's all before registrations had mother's maiden name....I just wish they'd never asked this question and then I could live on in blissful ignorance :-)

I know what you mean.
A look at a Welsh census of 1911 this week revealed an unknown child had been born and died in one family.
They were JENKINS..... I'm spoilt for choice!

Gwyn

You're not stuck for all of Wales - just all of Wales except Anglesey. E.g.:

North Wales Birth indexes for the years: 1891
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
ALLMAN James Willie Holyhead Isle of Anglesey - Llangefni WILLIAMS HOLYHEAD/29/E221
AMROD Mary Beaumaris Isle of Anglesey - Llangefni ROBINSON BEAUMARIS/34/E324

There are some local RO indeices online, and, unlike the GRO index, some of these do list the mum's MS pre-1911q3.

Check out http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
The above example was from http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/

I have Williams in my OH's Welsh ancestry. To make it worse a Williams married a Williams and the siblings of both have similar christian names AND they named their children the same darn names as some of their siblings. I have multiple William Williams, Catherine Williams, Morgan Williams and Huw Williams:-0

Sue

I loved finding more little babies having been born, from seeing the 1911 census, but then felt sad when I found their death registrations very soon after the birth registrations. The register office staff were very helpful at confirming the identity of the babies.

I'm back to this little enigma. Since I posted this in 2011, I mapped my great grandparents on their tour of GB following the fledgling iron and steel industry...I bought three possible birth certificates only to find that, not only were they not mine, they were siblings!

Two requests....

Frances Jane (Fanny) Cox married to William Hyde (Christmas Day 1886 in Balsall Heath)...1911 5 Born, 3 living, 2 died.

So the three living are
Clara May born 1888 and baptised in 1890 in Balsall Heath - this is my gran
William Evans born and baptised Balsall Heath 1895
Harry Evans born Newport 1903

I have found one of the two born/died in Harriett, born baptised and died Balsall Heath 1893.

But try as I might I cannot find the final child. To add to the conundrum, in 1901 William (dad) is with Clara and William in Worcestershire and claims to be widowed (THIS IS ANOTHER THREAD SO DON'T WASTE TIME ON IT!!!!!) but in 1903 Frances gives birth to Harry and I have a picture of her in 1953 just before she died with her gg grandson.

So can anyone find anything on the missing child?

Then my grand aunt Maria Llewellyn married Albert (Arthur) Henry Wright in 1897 (both born in Newport and his banns called July 1897 in Newport but they seem to have married in Bedminster). 1911 6 born, three living three died.

I have identified as follows:
Horace Llewellyn born and died Newport 1898
Albert Marchant born 1904 (died 1965)
Freda Maria born 1905 died 1908
Reginald Steer born 1908 (died 1973)
William Henry born 1910 (died 1996)

So again I am missing one...there are two children who were born after 1911 that I know all about.

I have done as much as I can by comparing births and deaths and then ruling out by baptisms...and now am at an impasse.

I really don't expect anyone to find anything I haven't...but it is always worth asking (even if it's only for the chat and banter) :-)

Jude

Hey, Jude!

I expect you've ruled all these out already, but I'll list them just in case there's one you missed! (This is assuming the missing Wright child was born and died in Newport.)


This one's a little early for the marriage, but you never know:
Births Jun 1897 (>99%)
Wright Georgina Newport, M. 11a 261
Deaths Jun 1897 (>99%)
Wright Georgina 0 Newport, M. 11a 145

Births Jun 1902
Wright Violet Irene Newport M 11a 279
Deaths Sep 1902 (>99%)
Wright Violet Irene 0 Newport, M. 11a 122


Births Sep 1903 (>99%) (Probably not - too Scottish)
Wright Hector Gordon Newport, M. 11a 220
Deaths Sep 1903 (>99%)
Wright Hector Gordon 0 Newport, M. 11a 95


Births Mar 1905 (>99%) (Another Scottish one)
Wright Hector McDonald Newport, M. 11a 231
Deaths Mar 1905 (>99%)
Wright Hector McDonald 0 Newport M 11a 164

Births Sep 1905 (>99%)
Wright Benjamin Newport, M. 11a 306
Deaths Mar 1906 (>99%)
Wright Benjamin 0 Newport M 11a 170

Births Sep 1906 (>99%)
Wright Lizzie Helen Newport, M. 11a 264
Deaths Sep 1906 (>99%)
Wright Lizzie Helen 0 Newport M 11a 121

Births Jun 1907 (>99%)
Wright George Alfred Newport M 11a 266
Deaths Dec 1907 (>99%)
WRIGHT George Alfred 0 Newport M 11a 122

Births Sep 1909 (>99%)
WRIGHT John Henry Newport M 11a 318
Deaths Jun 1910 (>99%)
Wright John Henry 0 Newport M. 11a 157

Births Dec 1910 (>99%)
WRIGHT Annie Newport M 11a 275
Deaths Jun 1911 (>99%)
Wright Annie 0 Newport M. 11a 154


Births Dec 1907 (>99%)
Wright Elizabeth Newport M 11a 249
Deaths Dec 1907 (>99%)
WRIGHT Elizabeth 0 Newport M 11a 134

ArgyllGran - I'll work through these later but a lot of them look very familiar so I am sure I have covered most of them. I can't work out why she married in Bedminster....Her father died in February 1897 and the probate shows him to be late of the Homfrey Arms which is in Newport.

Albert was from Newport and in 1901 they were living with her mother and brother and sister in Newport.

Strangely she -almost alone among her siblings - was baptised at the age of seventeen. I assumed this was so she could get married in Church but it was four years before she married :-S

In respect of the late baptism.
If she was a domestic servant, it could be that her employers insisted that she was baptised.
Many employers did.

Ah Wisechild - interesting. Not sure what she did at first. By early 1900s she was running pubs with her husband

Jude

I've frittered away a lot of this afternoon meandering through your family, Jude, and finding out nothing you won't already know. (Certainly nothing to do with the title of this thread, and nothing to do with your query about missing children!)

Various observations:

I see Albert was a book-binder in 1901 (as well as 1891 when the Wright and Llewellyn families were living next door to each other, so Albert & Maria were probably childhood sweethearts) , and only became a licensed victualler between then and 1911. Not relevant to anything, just interesting!

Maybe his mother-in-law was still running the pub in 1901, then retired and he took over.

Re Maria's employment, she always lived with her parents, at least until between 1901 and 1911, having previously just added Albert to the household. So she probably always helped her father, and then her husband, and didn't have any other employer.

I notice that her mother is listed twice in 1911, once at her own address, and again as a visitor to Albert & Maria.

Albert's mother Mary Ann Steer and (step?)father William Henry Wright married in Devon in 1871, so I don't understand why Albert and his sister Alice, who were both born after that (at least according to the census), are listed as William's stepchildren in 1881.
I wondered if maybe Alice, in spite of being listed in 1881 as born in Newport, might actually have been this one?
Births Sep 1871 (>99%)
Steer Alice Mary Plymouth 5b 279
She would then have been William's stepdaughter, and then maybe the clerk just assumed that Albert/Arthur was his stepson.

But what happened to Alice after 1881?

Must stop - there are enough mysteries in my own tree!

Oh AG - brilliant - I must absorb this.

Just thinking aloud...Maria and her sister Mary Jane were profoundly deaf and consequently - as the time allowed - dumb. So I can see why she was always with her mother. I think the pub thing came from my great great grandfather. He was a farmer and owned several properties including the Crwys Hotel in Cardiff. Lewis, Maria's husband, was a blacksmith originally but they both moved into the pub/hotel trade as did my grandfather, also Lewis, and Maria junior. And also their elder brother William....the pubs that William in particular ran are still going and worth a mint :- )

Yes I had wondered about that census - Mary Ann Steer is definitely correct - they named one of their sons Reginald Steer Wright, another Albert Marchant (after Maria senior) Their first born Horace, Horace Llewellyn...and their last born Claude also Llewellyn

I was feeling bored tonight - you have given me something to play with :-)

Jude

Happy to oblige!

Well AG have solved the whereabouts of Alice Mary!

In 1891 Alice Wright is in Bristol with Joseph and Fanny Porter - Niece. Joseph Porter married Fanny Steer.....

In November that year, Alice Mary Maud Wright, spinster aged 20, married Walter George Thayer.

So now working on the birth.......I think she really was born Newport Monmouthshire as she says...

Name: Alice Mary Wright
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1872
Registration district: Newport
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 194


Jude

OK so changed title...

In 1901 I finder Alice Mary in Somerset

ame: Alice Thayer
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Newport, Montgomeryshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Easton in Gordano and St George
Ecclesiastical parish: Pill Christchurch
Town: Pill
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Long Ashton
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2356
Folio: 37
Page Number: 3
Household schedule number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Alice Thayer 28
Freda Thayer 8
Willie Thayer 4
Herbert Thayer 1

No sign of Walter her husband....but as he was a "pilot" he could have been out on the river somewhere. Freda is Freda Olive, Willie is (I think) Walter Thomas William and Herbert is (I think) Victor Herbert.

So in 1911 I have found what I think is her husband

Name: Walter Thayer
Age in 1911: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation to Head: Crew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish: Barry
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Pilot Assistant
Registration district: Cardiff
Registration District Number: 588
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Piece: 32210
Household Members:
Name Age
William Ray 54
Walter Thayer 38

and Freda is with Maria and Albert Wright in Newport. But I can't find hide or hair of Alice or the two boys. I have found rail employment records for both the boys around 1914/5 in Newport. And Alice and Walter died within a month of each other Dec 1957/Jan 1958 again in Newport.

Eyes please!

Of to cook Sunday roast now so might not be back for a little while :-)

Jude

[EDIT: Oops, I took so long compiling this that you've got most of it in before me!]

I know this would appear to be the obvious birth:

Births Sep 1872 (>99%)
Wright Alice Mary Newport, M. 11a 194

but it was the listing as stepdaughter in 1881 which made me wonder about Alice Mary Steer.

In 1891 she's still listed as born in Newport, so either I'm wrong about Alice Steer, or else her mother Mary wanted to cover up the fact that she'd been born out of wedlock. Maybe Alice had always been told she was born in Newport.

Alice Thayer was the right age to be "your" Alice.
Deaths Dec 1957 (>99%)
THAYER Alice M 85 Newport 8c 246

Still listed as born in Newport:

1901 England Census about Alice Thayer (Walter not with them)
Name: Alice Thayer
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Newport, Montgomeryshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Easton in Gordano and St George
Ecclesiastical parish: Pill Christchurch
Town: Pill
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Long Ashton
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2356
Folio: 37
Page Number: 3
Household schedule number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Alice Thayer 28
Freda Thayer 8
Willie Thayer 4
Herbert Thayer 1

Solved the mystery re why Albert & Maria got married in Bedminster registration area - maybe!
That's where Alice & family were living in the 1890's - at least that's where the children were born - and it looks as if in the summer of 1897 she was very pregnant with Willie, and probably couldn't travel:
Births Dec 1892 (>99%)
Thayer Freda Olive Bedminster 5c 666

Births Jun 1897 (>99%)
Thayer William Henry Bedminster 5c 593
[EDIT: No, from 1911 and associated research, I can see he's part of a different family of Thayers.]


Can't see Herbert's birth anywhere. [EDIT: Yes, you're right about Victor Herbert.]

This one looks like one of Alice's, just because of the name, but where is he in 1901?
Births Jun 1896 (>99%)
Thayer Walter Thomas W Bedminster 5c 693

In 1911 daughter Freda's working with Uncle Albert:

1911 Wales Census about Freda Olive Thayer
Name: Freda Olive Thayer
Age in 1911: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1893
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Pill, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Newport
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: 51 Commercial St Newport Mon
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Barmaid <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Newport
Registration District Number: 587
Sub-registration district: Newport
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Household schedule number: 92
Piece: 31980
Household Members:
Name Age
Albert Henry Wright 36
Maria Wright 34
Albert Marchant Wright 6
Reginald Steer Wright 2
William Henry Wright 9/12
Robert William Wright 25
Mary Jane Llewellyn 37
Nellie Elizabeth Simons 22
Katherine Gould 17
Freda Olive Thayer 18 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Maria Oconnor Llewelyn 69
John William Baker 52
Mary Margaret Ann Baker 46

Possibility for William Henry in 1911 - assuming he's Willie in 1901:

[EDIT: No this is a different family. Walter George didn't have a sister Jane.]


1911 England Census about William Henry Thayer
Name: William Henry Thayer
Age in 1911: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1897
Relation to Head: Nephew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bristol, Somerset
Civil Parish: Kingswood
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Street address: 41 South Rd, Kingswood, Bristol
Occupation: school
Registration district: Keynsham
Registration District Number: 317
Sub-registration district: Kingswood
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 21
Piece: 14763
Household Members:
Name Age
George Henry Green 34
Jane Green 33
Alfred Henry Arthur Green 2
William Henry Thayer 14


???
Marriages Dec 1903 (>99%)
Green George Henry Bristol 6a 34
Thayer Jane Bristol 6a 34

I know there's more than one family of Thayers in the area.

I checked out this William Henry - Jane Green was Jane Thayer but I can't find her as a sister to Walter and as a daughter to Thomas. So I think she's another branch.

I see what you mean about Alice's birth registration - I might invest in both the birth certificates next week when I get paid just out of curiosity! It's strange that William and Mary Ann had the three later children - Lily Blache Robert William and John Steer baptised but they didn't have either Alice or Albert baptised. Also strange is a marriage in Newport in 1880

Marriages Dec 1880 (>99%)
Davies Emily Alice Newport M 11a 245 Scan available - click to view
Merry Elias Newport M. 11a 245 Scan available - click to view
MERRY Eliza Newport M 11a 245
Wright Mary Ann Newport, M. 11a 245 Scan available - click to view
Wright William Henry Newport, M. 11a 245 Scan available - click to view

Jude