Genealogy Chat

Hi All

If you have a spare 10 mins.... and like an Irish mystery.....

I have been looking into Motherwells and the GR Family have helped tremendously. Previous thread to follow

One tack I am trying to explore is whether the two Motherwell brothers listed in the following link

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/1901Garshooey.htm

are linked in some way - perhaps cousins. Any idea on how i might find any birth records or ref to parents????

Yours in hope

Chris

and the previous thread is

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1272509

Christopher couldn't you just put the relevant info in this thread ( if there is in fact a reason to start a new one at all ) rather than asking people to click all over the place for the info that relates to your question ?

.......... oh, and then scroll through some census list looking for people whose names you haven't even given ..........

I would think you are much more likely to get replies if each person who comes along doesn't have to hunt through cyberspace to see what your question ( which seems to be about 'find ancestors' rather than 'genealogy chat' ) is about

who are these people ... names, birthdates, birthplaces, records ... and who is it you think they may have been related to ?

just for information could this be their deaths ?

Name: William A Motherwell
Registration District: Londonderry
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1918
Estimated Birth Year: 1842
Age (at Death): 76
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 0101607
Volume Number: 2
Page Number: 123
Digital Folder Number: 4201711
Image Number: 00319
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

Name: Thomas C Motherwell
Registration District: Londonderry
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1919
Estimated Birth Year: 1836
Age (at Death): 83
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 0101607
Volume Number: 2
Page Number: 169
Digital Folder Number: 4201711
Image Number: 00519
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

the ages are slightly off from the 1901 census ..... 59 and 63 .

My sincere apologies for breaching protocol/common sense - you are right.

Basically reason running the the new thread is that the old one had dried up and talking to my ma - we thought we needed to start looking for the two individuals (brothers) who may have been related to a Susan Motherwell b1842 - and who married in 1857 very near to these guys

Anyway point taken and will be more careful next time

Part of the mystery is a will - so will search for the one that died later at PRONI

So ... the question is ... could Thomas and William be her cousins ? or possibly brothers ?

I am not an Irish records whiz ......... would the death records give any family information ?

I do think it's wise if you are asking for help to share all the information you have even if it is speculative ( just mention that )

part of the mystery is a will ... what mystery ? what will ? what is in it that you are trying to investigate ?

Chrissie

The two brothers were possibly her cousins. Te her is Susan Motherwell b 1842 - m1857 then left for Scotland in 1861'ish. She married Samuel Watson - and have a MC for that. The family myth (no evidence of this) was that her parents died (they were called James and Susan Motherwell) when she was a child and she was brought up by two uncles. She married at 16 (with someone who was 26!!!! - a man called Samuel Watson).

The family myth goes on to talk about a sister of this Susan Motherwell (name not known) who sailed off to america. the next myth is that there was an article in a paper (called the sketch) about an appeal for interstes in a will.

So we are trying to find out of she had a sister;
Was there a will in the 1920's

I included a lot of info in the the original thread (which dried up - hence new post). The responses led me to believe that (1) not a lot of Motherwells in the area that she got married - so they must be related - (
2). Thus i am trying to understand of there is any firm evidence of James Motherwells brothers and then see if there is any evidence of where they lived or if anybody on GR has picked them up.

Bottom line - seems to be going round in circles.

if you search here

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html

just for surname Motherwell in Donegal Ireland, any event

I tried dates 1800-1830, exact and close match

there are deaths of several Motherwells born around/before 1800

only two male deaths

John born 1795 died 1868
Caldwell A born 1800 died 1881

they could be worth investigating, and of course try some more searches there

these are the female persons who married in the same place as Susan ( All Saints Donegal ) around the same time ( I searched for Motherwell events 1840 to 1860 )

Catherine Ellen married Robert Edwards 1855
Rebecca Anne born 1840 married John Steele 1857
they were both daughters of Caldwell

the other Motherwell men named as fathers in marriages were James ( father of Susan ) and William (not for marriages in All Saints )


Caldwell and John seem very likely candidates for being the uncles I would say ... no conclusive evidence at this point, but in the right place at the right time ...


edit

another reference to Caldwell

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/allsaintsdn.htm
death notices

July 19 1867
July 17, ELIZABETH, aged 19 years, daughter of MR CALDWELL MOTHERWELL, Monglass

( I wonder whether there were two generations of Caldwells )


Motherwells in All Saints, Griffiths Valuations, unfortunately no date attached at that site, after death of James ?

http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/donegal/allsaints.htm

Motherwell Caldwell Creeve All Saints Donegal
Motherwell Caldwell Monglass All Saints Donegal
Motherwell John Cloon All Saints Donegal
Motherwell John Creeve All Saints Donegal
Motherwell John Garshooey All Saints Donegal
Motherwell John Kildrum, Lower All Saints Donegal
Motherwell John Leitrim All Saints Donegal
Munn Mary Creeve All Saints Donegal


http://www.ulsterancestry.com/1876_Landowners_Co-Donegal.html

1876 landowners

Caldwell Motherwell, address Near Derry, owned 300 acres
John Motherwell, address Castrues, owned 272 acres


I like them for the job :-D

Could this be a sister ?

Groom's Name: William Robison
Bride's Name: Sarah Motherwell
Marriage Date: 31 Mar 1853
Marriage Place: Taughboyne, Don, Ire
Groom's Father's Name: James Robison
>>> Bride's Father's Name: James Motherwell
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M70209-1
System Origin: Ireland-VR
Source Film Number: 101351
Reference Number: 2:3F2CVH9
Collection: Ireland Marriages, 1619-1898

only two Motherwell events appear for Taughboyne, that and the marriage of a daughter of William Motherwell in 1855.


http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/taughboyneproj.htm

Teach Baoithín - Taughboyne
A parish, in the barony of RAPHOE, county of DONEGAL, and province of ULSTER, 5 miles (W. S. W.) from Londonderry, on the road to Raphoe

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/allsaintsproj.htm

Allsaints
A parish, in the barony of RAPHOE, county of DONEGAL, and province of ULSTER, 6 miles (W.) from Londonderry, on Lough Swilly
(includes Cloon, Creeve, Garshooey, Kildrum, Leitrim and Monglass)

1901 census has Alex Motherwell, 47, farmer, in Monglass, son or grandson of Caldwell ?


names names names you can't have too many names ...

The 1860 US census has

William Robison city, Albany, New York 35 abt 1825 Ireland
Sarah Robison city, Albany, New York 25 abt 1835 Ireland


I do not pay for access but I would assume they are living together

and they sure look like a good match for the couple who married in Donegal in 1853


also in Albany are

John Robison city, Albany, New York 8 abt 1852 location
George Robison city, Albany, New York 5/12 abt 1860
Peter Robison city, Albany, New York 23 abt 1837 location
Mary Robison city, Albany, New York 22 abt 1838 Ireland

Christopher...Why didn't you just continue your other thread...?
Most of the info .you had has now been duplicated.....
You are really needing to get some Certs...eg. Susan and Sams Marriage Maura listed details of where to find it...

"10 Mins to spare"...!!!!

Hi Erin and Chrissie

My profuse apologies again - I committed two faux pas - first starting a sep thread and second posting on Geanology Chat - won't happen again...

The reason for the separate post was to start a new line on trying to gather intel about the two brothers (who i suspect were cousins) - suppose i shouldn't have done that.

The emergent theory (from me and and my Mum) is that James Motherwell must have been alive when his daughter married in 1857 (he is marked on the marriage certificate with no mention of deceased. She (Susan Motherwell) was 16 and her husband 26 (so smells a bit like someone was pregnant. They married in a Church of Ireland Ceremony - when the Motherwells were . We suspect that the mention of the will in the 1920s related to the two brothers and somehow there was still family memory that made Susan Watson Children think - that's part of our heritage etc. Thus - the farm may have been linked to James and his brother??

so - I will undertake a review of all the evidence and as your rightly suggest try and get the evidence. I do have the wedding Certificate (or rather transcribed details0 from the Irish site (5 Euros.....)

As for the 10 mins - as my wife says - I am optimistic about time!!!!

I also talked about giving up on this one as given the difficulty in getting birth records, it may never be solved. It is just so frustrating as i just feel that the answer is nearly there.

My Mum keeps banging on about working from further back (from those records about Plantation settlers - but i suspect that will come to nought)

Having said all of that - my Ma went to Belfast last week and went to Enskillen where she bumped into a family tree expert and member of the Church of Ireland (as you do ...) I will email her as she indicated that all parish churches have computerised their records.

Sorry to both of you again

any thoughts about the Sarah Motherwell who married Robison and may be the couple in the USA in 1860 ?

if you amend your subject title to something like

US census lookup please

someone with worldwide Ancestry access would be able to help

the people in question in 1860 are

William Robison city, Albany, New York 35 abt 1825 Ireland
Sarah Robison city, Albany, New York 25 abt 1835 Ireland

I was not able to trace them in later censuses so it would be interesting to see whether those children in 1860 are theirs and whether the family can be found after 1860


as far as the duplication ... yes, once I'd done all that searching for myself ... I see it was much what Eringobragh put in your other thread ... I do dislike duplication ... but it gave me a handle on the people and in particular the Sarah marriage caught my eye and led to the 1860 US census

I note that Eringobragh also mentioned Scotland as a possible origin for James and there were certainly a James birth or two in Scotland that could fit ...

Just spoken to my ma - our gut feel (very circumstantial) is that she is the sister. She also married at 16 or 17. Our chat tonight centred upon the family story of the sister going to America by herself being flawed on the grounds that if she was the sister she would have come from respectable protestant farming stock - so a single girl going by herself to America is unlikely.

So what is best thing to post and where? I was thinking of saying

Look Up Needed from someone with Worldwide Ancestry Access - then put details of what you've put

Hold the front page - think it may not be as Wiliam Robison/Robinson and Sarah Motherwell had several children in Donegal after the 1860 American census - they may have gone and come back

Christopher

Just edit this post as mentioned by Chrissie above

Go to opening post click edit and change your title

jax

Thanks Jax

LOL - thanks - i should read things - I assume that it comes up with a new one but with the detail embeded in

There must be a lot of GR members watching my antics and rolling their eyes

Oh wise ones

Re trying to find out the Cousins and their father i have just discovered something. If you recall - James Motherwell (father of Susan Mothewell) may have been brother to Caldwell and John (who in turn may have been the two uncles). Further the two cousins who died in 1918 and 1919 (who were on the census as single - living together - and may have been the basis of this family story about a will) were probably sons of John Motherwell:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/tauheadstones.htm - gravestone reads:



In Memory of William Motherwell Senr., Leitrim
Who died 20th June 1783 aged 78 years
Also his wife Sarah who died
28th March 1785 aged 72 years
And their son William who died
22nd June 1821 aged 68 years

Also his wife Catherine who died
20th December 1841 aged 88 years
And their son
William who died 29th November 1850 aged 68 years

Also Catherine daughter of John Motherwell, Garshuey
Who died 25th October 1851 aged 20 years

John Motherwell, Garshuey who
Died 4?th December 1868 aged 73 years
Fanny Motherwell his wife who died
1st June 1880 aged ?0 years
And their daughter Jane Motherwell who died
7th ?? ?97 aged 6? Years
(this section overgrown will check again)

Also William Alexander son of
John Motherwell of Garshuey who died
15th June 1918 aged 76 years
Also his brother
Thomas Motherwell died
20th January 1919 aged 84 years.

the key now is to find James

Yes Christopher...we know that but it doesnt help identify where James and said Susan parents of Susan et al. were....

Have you had a look at the Wills...you can see them on PRONI...

I still have not identified a Catherine daughter of Susan and Samuel...cannot locate anything about her... Do you have actual Primary Source info.relating to her or is it just from "Family Members"....

If you have then let me have details

I have discovered from LDS

James Motherel
Pennsylvania, Philadelphia City Death Certificates, 1803-1915

death: 21 Jul 1847 —Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

record title: Pennsylvania, Philadelphia City Death Certificates, 1803-1915
name: James Motherel
death date: 21 Jul 1847
death place: Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
gender: Male
death age: 50 years
estimated birth year: 1797
digital folder number: 4009819

THEN - on the Donegal site they have a transcribing from the announcements which says:

September 18 1847
July 21st, at Philadelphia, United States, America, of ship fever, MR JAMES MOTHERWELL, late of Greenhill, near Carrigans, county Donegal, aged 55 years

Location is near to the general Motherwell activity. Any ideas on how i might get more detail - is this asking for a lookup from somebody who has ancestry worldwide?