Genealogy Chat

I'm not sure about that, it was something that puzzled me too.

But as her first passport of her own (I presume she would have been on her parents prior to that) would have been just after the war, I wonder if she would have been able to use her identity papers and then when it was near running out, she would have just renewed it (I think she always had a passport when we were growing up, although seldom used)

It must have been something that many children, prior to official adoption, came up against.

Maybe my grandparents did tell Mum and had a copy of the certificate I have now, stashed away somewhere which she could have got rid of when they died. I emptied her house after she died and never found one.

I really must attack my trunk and have another sort through in case Ive missed something though.
Liz

Hi Angela
Sorry, I missed your post in my excitement!
I did get in touch with the register office, but they didn't find anything and I also checked the adoption indexes in Birmingham just in case she was officially adopted at a later date (from when it first became official up to 1944 when she would have turned 21)
But thanks for your suggestion
Liz

Yes, it is suprising, but I'm very glad they didn't!

Maybe Jean Williams and her condition were known to my grandparents and it was all arranged that they would take the baby and asked for her to be registered with THEIR chosen name.

That is probably a flight of fancy!

She was registered on 25th September by Jean Williams and Baptised on 30th September with my grandparents stated as the parents (between 5 and 6 weeks) so maybe she intended to keep the baby originally but found she couldnt cope or was poorly.

Doubt I'll ever know

Liz

Great news!

I am surprised that her name wasn't changed though.

Rose

Thanks everyone, Im really pleased!

K, thank you for that, I had a quick look this morning on the 1911, but only put in 10 years either side of 1900 (not sure why!) I think yours sounds probably more likely than the one I found living in Conway Carnarvonshire aged 2.
The reasoning behind that was that my Grandparents used to holiday in North Wales, their honeymoon was taken in Barmouth and I have a letter that suggests that it was not the only time they stayed there, and I remember Mum telling me of the wonderful holidays she spent as a child around the Llandudno area..................just a thought

I shall have to go into it all when I have time, I am supposed to be catching up with the accounts today, not doing family research (but I think you all know which I'd rather be doing ;-)
Thanks to all
Liz x

I am so pleased for you. That give you a new line to trace now.

Happy hunting
Cheryl

What a fascinating tale. Jean Williams is a reasonably unusual name. I had a quick look at the 1911 census and barely a dozen are listed.

This may be a complete red herring but I did find this below


KNOWLES, Richard Harrison Head Married M 30 1881 Farmer Monker House Markington Yorkshire VIEW
KNOWLES, Ethel Mary Rose Wife Married F 29 1882 La Zouch Leicestershire VIEW
KNOWLES, Kathlyn Hilda Mary Daughter Single F 0 1911 Morker House Ripon VIEW
ANDERTON, Arthur Boarder Single M 25 1886 Farm Pupil St Helen Lancashire VIEW
>>>WILLIAMS, Jean Single F 24 1887 Monthly Nurse Mold Flintshire VIEW
HOWLETT, George Servant Single M (NOT KNOWN) Waggoner On Farm Not Known VIEW
FIFE, Richard Servant Single M 20 1891 Labourer On Farm Eastham Nr Norwich Norfolk VIEW
BUCHE, Leonard Morris Servant Single M 15 1896 Waggoner On Farm Wheldeaks Nr York Yorkshire VIEW
TRUEMAN, Tom Servant Single M 16 1895 Cowman On Farm Pickhill Gate House Yorkshire VIEW
TAYLOR, Ruth Isabel Servant Single F 30 1881 Cook Domestic Sowerby on Cotcliffe Yorkshire VIEW
HAW, Alice Servant Single F 17 1894 Housemaid Domestic York Yorkshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
25860 Reference:
RG14PN25860 RG78PN1494 RD487 SD2 ED13 SN2

Registration District:
Ripon Sub District:
Ripon Enumeration District:
13 Parish:
Markington with Wallerthwaite

Address:
Snedale Morker Ripon County:
Yorkshire (West riding)

Have you thought about going to the registry office where the previous children were registered and check to see if they have Mum listed. It could be she got missed off the BMD register. I have a few p[eople in my family that this has happened to. Why don't you give the registry office a call and see if they can help.

Reading this with a smile on my face......WELL DONE everyone!!! :-D

Mary

The same birth date? Same uncommon combination of names with that spelling of Elisabeth? 100% I would say! Had a gut feeling about the Kings Norton one so really chuffed about that.
Absolutely fantastic news Liz - who would have thought it possible! You must be thrilled to bits.
Hope you have an address, might be worth checking out on electoral register.
Jan

Hi everyone

I am soooo excited!! I am almost certain that I have found her!

I have only just got your posts Jan and Rose. My internet connection was finally fixed the day we went on holiday but I had decided to take a flyer and order the certificate that I had been humming and harring about so sent for it almost as I ran out of the door to catch the plane!

I got back very early this morning and found it waiting, but left it till this morning to open.

Jean Elisabeth Williams born to Jean Williams a sick nurse (Im assuming that isnt her state of health but occupation!) No father named. DOB 23rd August 1923

Does everyone agree that its at least a 99% chance that its her?
Liz :-D

It's Erdington Rose, but not far from Aston..
Jan

Which district is Stockland Green in? Aston?

Rose

EDIT n oops, just read last posting and you have this!!

Not really helpful - there are a few Jean E's born around Birmingham - but just putting this as an outside chance this child was illegitimate. A common surname unfortunately!

Births Sep 1923
Williams Jean E Williams King's N. 6d 93

If you are not local let me know, I am happy to check out B'ham archives at some point.

Jan

HI JaneyCanuk and Gwyn in Kent.

Thanks for your comments, sorry I didn't acknowledge earlier, but my internet connection is really playing up at the moment, so haven't been doing much tree work!

Gwyn, I do have an old passport in my 'family trunk' I will have to get it out and check, but I'm pretty sure its Birmingham (and as I registered her death, I'm hoping its correct!) No I havent actually viewed the baptism entry, maybe that can be another day out for me :-)

Janey, I did have a look at the Jean E Scott entries, and I think I see what you mean (Im easily confused!)
There is however a Jean E Williams (mmn Williams) born in the same quarter in their home area. I think I might splash out on the birth cert of that one as I think its more likely that she was born 'close to home'. None of the Brooks/Wells families seemed to move around very much at all.

I will update if I find anything relevant.
In the meantime, happy research
Liz

About the Jean E Scott births on page 1 of the thread -- you have to look at the images to see what they mean.

Name: Jean E Scott
Mother's Maiden Surname: Scott
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1923
Registration district: Marylebone
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 721

Name: Jean E Scott
Mother's Maiden Surname: Scott
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1923
Registration district: Marylebone
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: ?? M24

-- Ancestry has mistranscribed that -- it's a handwritten addition at the bottom of the page and it says "1a See June 1924" meaning that the birth occurred during Q3 1923, but was registered (or reregistered) in Q1 1924.

This is the registration it refers to:

Name: Jean E Scott
Mother's Maiden Surname: Scott
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1924
Registration district: Marylebone
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 752

FreeBMD, on the other hand, has mistranscribed the 1924 as 1926. If you click on "Info" beside the entry at FreeBMD, it says this:

"This entry appears to be a late entry however the entry referred to cannot be found, either because it is not identical to this entry or because it has not yet been transcribed."

which is because it isn't 1926, it's 1924.

Births Sep 1923
Scott Jean E Scott Marylebone 1a see June 1926 >> should say 1924
Scott Jean E Scott Marylebone 1a 721
Births Jun 1924
Scott Jean E Scott Marylebone 1a 752


Usually a reregistration takes place when a father's surname is added to the entry. In this case, the late registration seems identical to original registration.

There's no particular reason to think this is your Jean Elsie, I thought it might just help to know what it all meant. ;-)

You could always order that certificate to see what the middle name is, and whether that person can be traced independently.


Oh, aha, the other thing to do is click on the page number to see other names on the list. I did it for 1923 but not 1924.

Births Jun 1924
Nevitt Jean E Scott Marylebone 1a 752
Scott Jean E Scott Marylebone 1a 752

So yes, that birth was reregistered in the father's surname. Here's that record, per Ancestry, St Marglebone, sigh:

Name: Joan E Nevitt
Mother's Maiden Surname: Scott
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1923
Registration district: St.Marglebone
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: J'24

A handwritten entry saying Jean E Nevitt with the same details is above that and crossed out. Poor woman!


There's a Ms Scott + Mr Nevitt marriage in 1924 in Chelsea which seems unlikely to be the one, but that's the first Nevitt-Scott birth, with 3 more later in other locations.


Edit - there's only one likely marriage for the name Jean E Nevitt, in Reading 1943, and this death would seem to match the marriage:

Name: Jean Elizabeth Hislop
Birth Date: 8 Jan 1922
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1974
Age at Death: 52
Registration district: Sunderland
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 1a
Page: 2423

Not a good match on the birthdate ... but that might not be surprising ...

Liz
Do you have an old passport belonging to your mother?
Where does she give as place of birth?

Is this what was also entered as birthplace on her death certificate?
Just maybe she was born away from the area you expect and still was the natural child of your grandparents.
Some of my distant relatives had children many miles away from their 'home' area, eg. travelled to their birth village so that extended family could help care for mother and child.
Have you viewed the baptism entry?
This was fairly soon after your mother's birth, which means that any 'adoption' was soon arranged or indeed that your grandparents knew her birth mother, if Jean was not their child.

Gwyn

Hello again everyone

Update!

I have just returned from viewing the Index to the Adopted Childrens Register at Birmingham Central Library. Sadly, it doesnt look as if Mum was ever formally adopted so I shall have to resign myself to never being to trace 1/2 of my blood line. Just a little frustrating, but it doesnt matter in the big scheme of things.

Thank you all, for the help you have given me, and happy researching :-)
Kind regards
Liz

Hello again to all who've helped me with this one

As Gerry suggested I contacted the local registry office to see if she had escaped the GRO and have had an answer back. It seems that there is no registered birth for Mum for sure and he gave me the option of paying £25 for him to do a search for any Jean Elisabeth (no surname) who was born on the same day as Mum.

I cant see that this will really help as

a) unless she was officially adopted later on after 1927 there would be no proof that it was the same child and

b) She may have been registered by her birth mother under an entirely different name (I seem to remember her telling me a very long time ago, how her Mum insisted that her name was spelt with an s rather than a z so it couldnt be shortened to Liz, seems like a Mothers choice of name!)

Anyway, I think I will go to Birmingham soon and check out the Adoption Indexes and see if that throws anything up. Apparently, Birmingham Library, where the History Centre/records are, is moving soon and from what I can gather, they are closing all or part of the history centre in July for about 2 years.

Thank you to all who have helped me
Liz

Thats a good thought Gerry, thank you. I will try and find out where the local office is and do that as a first step I think. You never now!

Thanks again
Liz