Genealogy Chat

I am aware the post is a few months old and will contact the op if no response.

old post) ,,,edit,dont know if its of use.?

but a Mr Horace Birch is listed in Phone Books

1911--+-1912

Mr Horace Birch.
33 Bury St.
St James.
Mayfair.

2 streets away from the Uni Club.

17-Apr-1832 M George JERAM of this parish and
Judith PIZZIE of this parish - by Banns
by Jonathan ASHE, Minister; Witnesses: Edward GOULD [X], Daniel LIDDIARD
229

1841 Address: Castle Street, Aldbourne
JERROME, George M 35 1806 Wiltshire
JERROME, Judith F 30 1811 Wiltshire
JERROME, William M 8 1833 Wiltshire
JERROME, John M 6 1835 Wiltshire
JERROME, George M 3 1838 Wiltshire
JERROME, Mary F 1 1840 Wiltshire
PIZZIE, Thomas M 10 1831 Wiltshire

1851 Address: Castle Street, Ham
JEROME, Judy Wife Married F 40 1811 Ag Lab
Aldbourne
Wiltshire
JEROME, Thomas Son Unmarried M 20 1831 Ag Lab
Aldbourne
Wiltshire
JEROME, George Son - M 13 1838 Ag Lab
Aldbourne
Wiltshire
JEROME, Mary Daughter - F 11 1840 Willow Weaver
Aldbourne
Wiltshire
JEROME, George Head Married M 45 1806 Ag Lab
Aldbourne
Wiltshire
JEROME, James Son - M 6 1845 -
Aldbourne
Wiltshire
JEROME, Elizabeth Daughter - F 7 1844 -
Aldbourne
Wiltshire
JEROME, Sarah Daughter - F 4 1847 -
Aldbourne
Wiltshire

12-Dec-1847 C Sarah JERRAM, dau of George and Judith JERRAM of Aldbourne, Labourer 135

I think we may link up here.

Some points that may help. Aldbourne has its own village website with a lot of Family history stuff on it. The admin is a lovely lady, Trisha. and very helpful. Should be found by google. Come back to me if you do not find it.

http://www.treelines.co.uk/ gives many Aldbourne parish records and is easy to navigate.

hi yes it was before the 1911 census was released i had hoped that i would have found some answers but sadly not.
thanks for any help in the past
cheers linda x

Linda
have I seen this before ?
I remember the story and trying to help
Was it before the 1911 was released?

Mary

here is the details off his birth cert

Born - 7th December 1898
Where - Union Infirmary Fulham
Name - Harry Carter
Sex - Male
Father - Not Given
Mother - Elizabeth Carter a General Servant (Domestic) of 50 Latimer Road Hammersmith
Fathers Occupation - Not Given
Signature - E Carter Union Infirmary Fulham
Register - 9th December 1898
Registrar - David Shopland

He was often known as William or Bill very rarely as Harry . We don't know where this came from. I know his mothers father was called William carter but harry sometimes went by the name of William brewer as well as harry carter and bill carter.

thanks for the interest
cheers linda x

Was he born William as in 1901 he is William Carter age 2.

Not as though it makes any difference.

Maryb

Hi Jonesey
just remembered that harry joined the navy and lied about his age. he tried on 3 attempts and on the first 2 he told his age and on the 3rd the recruiter said if i was to ask you if you were 16 then you would reply yes is that correct and that is how he joined. he did his training on the victory and learned to swim by being thrown overboard with a rope tied to his waist. could you imagine that happening today
i have tried to find any records of his time in the navy . he came out of the navy sometime before 1922 because that is when he married and settled down and became the village bobby and blacksmith. i have his farrier papers from 1923
cheers linda

Jonesey
you are a star as usual. I suppose some of the dates might be incorrect as the notes harry made where done when he was 80 and was in hospital having treatment for prostate cancer he died not long after. .yes i agree with you that the connection could have been through Edward Brewer. I hadn't thought of that i had done the worst thing and just assumed it was through his mother.
I will dig out harrys notes and see what else i can find . another member of the family has them at the moment.
I will also take a look at st barts.

thanks for your help. you are a fountain of knowledge
cheers linda

Difficult to do I know but have you researched Edward Brewers military connections to see if anything might lead to Horace Birch? Might he be an ex-army colleague or someone connected via the regiment perhaps.

As Harry recorded that his mother and sisters were not in his family home when he returned there from his first hospital stay I am assuming that Edward Brewer was the one who organised Harry's removal to London.

Without wishing to appear cynical some elements of Harry's story do make me wonder whether either the timing of the events might be out a bit. For example you know that Harry (Recorded as William) was in Hampshire with his mother in the 1911 census (Taken 2/4/1911) where he is shown to be 13 years old. Presumably it was after that when he arrived in London. Indeed your thoughts that he arrived in London between 1911 and 1914 meaning that he would have been between 13~15 years old when he arrived there. His story includes mention of the outbreak of WW1 (British declaration of war 4/8/1914) at which time he would appear to be in London. He mentions that it was shortly after his return home he learnt that he was to receive further treatment at St Barts Hospital. You appear to know how he injured his arm, do you know when that was?

I suppose the questions in my mind are whether a 13~15 year old at that time would be allowed the freedom of an exclusive gentleman's club whose members included eminent politicians and luminaries. Would a boy of that age at that time be given pocket money and a pair of roller skates to race up and down the streets of central London outside such establishments.

Incidentally St Barts has an archive which may contain reference to Harry's stay and treatment there. If Horace Birch was Harry's legal guardian there may be some information about him.

http://www.bartsandthelondon.nhs.uk/about-us/museums-and-archives/st-bartholomew-s-archives/

thanks everyone for your interest.

sorry didn't get back but my mother in law is in hospital so between visiting and tending to her pets and house i don't have much time..
the family that Mary found is the right one.
Harry broke his arm while climbing in a neighbours barn with other boys so i don't think it was the neighbour who paid for Harry's treatment

Elizabeth's parents were William carter and Sarah Jerram/Jerome

Her birth was registered in Hungerford Wiltshire and it states father William Carter occupation Ag Lab address Rounce Cottage in Aldbourne Wiltshire. mother Elizabeth Carter maiden name Jerram

I have no idea as to how Elizabeth came to London.
Elizabeth gives birth to a son Harry Carter in the Union Workhouse Infirmary in Fulham London in 1898 on Harry's birth certificate it states she is a domestic servant living at 50 Latimer Street Hammersmith London.

on the 1891 census she is 11 years old and still living at home

On the 1891 census

The family are living Upper Upham Aldbourne Wiltshire
William Carter head aged 45 years widower occupation Ag Labourer born Mildenhall Wiltshire
George Carter son aged 16 years occupation Ag Lab working under William Carter born Aldbourne Wiltshire
Charles Carter son aged 14 years occupation Plough Boy born Aldbourne Wiltshire
Elizabeth Carter daughter aged 11 years occupation Scholar born Aldbourne Wiltshire
Richard Carter son aged 9 years occupation Scholar born Aldbourne Wiltshire
James Carter son aged 7 years occupation Scholar born Aldbourne Wiltshire

I know this is going to be a great tale when it is finally unravelled. it sounds like something out of a catherine cookson novel.

I wish i could find out what happened to Elizabeth and her daughters elsie and florence. they had left Edward brewer and his sons and it is thought they went to london while harry was in a local hospital. it seems strange leaving your son . it seems Edward brewer was a bit of a bully and it was he who put harry on a train to london to be met my mr horace birch . Edward Brewer died in 1920 he went into Chelsea Hospital in 1914 so Harry must have gone to london between 1911 census and 1914 when edward brewer went into hospital.

Edward was an In-Pensioner (at the Royal Chelsea Hospital ) who served in the 23rd Foot (Royal Welsh Fusiliers). On the 1871 census
Edward Brewer is aged 21 years and a private soldier in the 2nd battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers stationed at Gillingham in Kent He was admitted to the Royal Hospital on 1st December 1914 at age 69. He passed away on 23 November 1920 and is buried at Brookwood Necropolis near Woking in Surrey; Grave Number: 185087 – U70

i have searched for anyone who has any details on horace birch or a mrs widdows although i cant find anything about her at all.

thanks everyone for all your interest any help or advice is always very much appreciated
cheers linda x

I wonder if it is anything to do with how he got his broken arm.

Maybe the person or employer felt obliged to get him the best treatment.

Elizabeth Jane Carter born @1879 christened 28/9/1879 in Aldbourne by William Carter and Sarah .

William Carter 1847 married Sarah Jerome 1847 - 1887.
1901 he is with wife Ann age 60 born Berkshire,he too is a ag/labourer.

Maryb

Horace Heathorn Birch of 40,Cromwell Rd Hove Sussex died 1926 left £251 15 10p to Alexander russell Birch assistant manager.

Maryb

Apart from what you have found on Harry Carter's birth certificate, the 1901 and the 1911 census records do you know anything else about Elizabeth Jane? I ask because I cannot spot her birth registration in Wiltshire. Have you got a copy of what I assume is her marriage certificate? If so what are her fathers details?

Marriages Sep 1900 (>99%)
Brewer Edward Hungerford 2c 517
Carter Elizabeth Jane Hungerford 2c 517

Have you got any idea how she came to be in the Hungerford area in 1900 having been in Fulham in 1898?

Just a note about workhouse births. At that time workhouse infirmaries were often the only place that free medical assistance could be obtained hence being born in a workhouse did not necessarily mean that the child's mother was an inmate of the establishment.

Hi
just thought i would nudge this up to see if anyone could give me any ideas on how i could find out about how a poor farm boy was sent to London to stay at a swanky gentlemans club and have expensive treatment on his arm . also i cant seem to find his mother Elizabeth Jane Carter married name Elizabeth Brewer after she left her husband . she was born 1878 Upper Upham Aldbourne Wiltshire and lived in Hampshire.
this is the family on the 1911 census

On the 1911 Census

The family are living at New Barn Compton Hants
Edward Brewer head aged 64 years born Penton Hampshire occupation is Farm Labourer
Elizabeth Brewer wife aged 34 years born Upper Upham Wiltshire
Married 13 years - Had 6 Children
4 Children Living and 2 Children who had died
Tom Brewer Son aged 32 years single born Chalton Hants occupation is Shepherd on Farms
Charles Brewer son aged 30 years single born Chalton Hants occupation is Carter on Farm
William Brewer son aged 13 years born Fulham London occupation - School ( THIS IS HARRY CARTER )
Elsie Brewer daughter aged 10 years born Linkenholt Berkshire occupation is School
Mabel Brewer daughter aged 6 years born Andover Hants
Florence Brewer daughter aged 5 years born Grateley Hampshire

it was said that Elizabeth left her husband and took Elsie and Florence with her supposedly to London .
If anyone has any info on them I would very much appreciate your help
thanks Linda

i have emailed the club twice but never got a reply
thanks for your interest
cheers linda

hi
harry carter was born 1898 in workhouse fulham and lived in hampshire with his mother and stepfather and siblings till 1911 and thenhe mentions being in london and seeing wild bill codys circus. so that must have been around 1915 as bill cody died in 1917. harry joined the navy but was under age. so i suppose he might have been in london between 1911 and 1917.

another excerpt

Life in London

I used to go for penny bus rides on Thomas Tilling red buses out to such places as Shepherds Bush. Once out there I happened on a lot of tents in a field with horses out at grass. I clambered through the fence, all in my best clothes, and made friends with the horses. Two boys came out from the tents and joined me, we had a grand time and I rode on one of the horses. Then a man came running out and ordered me off and sent the boys back to the tents. As I was leaving I saw the posters for William Cody’s Wild West Show — Buffalo Bill's Show — and I had ridden on one of the probably unridable horses! I got into a scrape when I got home because my nice London suit was smothered in horse hairs.
I couldn’t rest in London. I had the freedom of the Club, was given pocket money, had a pair of roller skates to race up and down the pavements of St. James Street, Pall Mall, St. James Park, Green Park and sometimes Hyde Park, but it was not Martyr Worthy.

Then the war came to light. That did it, I went all patriotic and wanted to be a sailor. My Guardian MR BIRCH said no, they would not have me with my arm and I was not old enough. Well I was not happy, I used to see framed mirrors on walls with a serviceman’s cap on the top and when I looked in the ones with a sailor’s cap I knew that was the cap for me.

have you tried contacting the club itself, to see if they can help

http://www.oxfordandcambridgeclub.co.uk/en/about-us/history/