Genealogy Chat

Only a thought, but if Jessie was told her mother died during childbirth and that was obviously a lie, then is it plausible that Thomas dying shortly after, in equally dramatic circumstances, could also be a red herring in this tangled web. What do you think? Marian

Marriages Dec 1875 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DAVIES Martha Chester 8a 615
JONES William Chester 8a 615

Only three Davies/Jones marriages in the appropriate timescale, this is the best.

No Tedstone/Jones marriages at all.

The same marriage is on Cheshirebmd. Do you think I should try a sob story to them to see if I can determine the parents without having to pay £7? I am good at concocting sob stories.

Hi Margaret...Thats the same marriage i posted a couple of pages back, like you could find no marriage for Martha with the Tedstone surname.

Go on if your good at concocting sob stories...give it a try.


Nicky

Well, I thought I'd get back down to the Tedstones after a break on another family.

First off, the Chester marriage of William Jones to Martha Davies in 1875 that I used my "skills" on is probably not right. I would say definitely not right. After much pressing and persuasion, they would only tell me that she was "not of full age", which means she was born after abt 1854. Despite our Martha possibly dropping her age, I don't think she will have dropped it by 20 years.

I am still confused about several bits, and I suspect others on here are a bit quicker than me. But I hope I still have my uses! Just picking up on thoughts by others that I initially didn't absorb. Sorry to be a pain on this. Hope some kind soul will help.

Charlotte Mary 1873 may have just dropped the Charlotte and adopted the name Jones on the census after Martha "married".

I can't for the life of me find her birth in Dukinfield, Lancashire/Cheshire now. Did we ever find it? I know it said she was born Dukinfield on the 1881 and 1891 census.

This is probably it. Sorry if it is already posted by someone.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Charlotte Mary Jones
Name: Charlotte Mary Jones
Year of Registration: 1874
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Ashton Under Lyne
County: Cheshire, Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 507 (click to see others on page)

I still can't understand why the 1861 Census which has Charlotte Davies age 75 would give her daughter as Martha Tedstone 25 (plus the nephew William Harding age 1). Why would she be recorded as a Tedstone if she was living with her mother named Davies who we presume married her father Thomas Davies? Other than that her mother was living a lie - but there seems no need for her to do that. In 1851, also with Charlotte Davis, she is also recorded as Tedstone. And if she is Charlotte's daughter, Charlotte would have been about 44 when she was born. I know not impossible, but still quite late. Surely she would be called Tedstone?

I had another squint at the marriage cert of Thomas Tedstone to Mary Jane Bradford which said his father was Thomas, a Policeman. It looks clear to me, but it is JUST possible that it says "Publican". No, it doesn't. It is definitely a "P" to start with, as there are other words starting with P. We don't have any publicans in the family do we? I have forgotten.

Have we found any of the family in 1871, apart from Martha, servant, in Barton upon Irwell and William 1820 with wife Eliza and nephews Robert and (our) Thomas?

Did we agree this is likely the birth of Robert (George) Tedstone, brother of our Thomas? Illegitimate son of Martha.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Robert George Tedstone
Name: Robert George Tedstone
Year of Registration: 1862
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Clun
County: Montgomeryshire, Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: [505] (click to see others on page)

Does anyone think there is anything else we should be looking for/getting certs for?

Hi Margaret......I`m still here plugging away at it as well.....like you coming up with lots of different scenarios.

Yes we agreed thats the birth of Robert half brother to Thomas, it confirmed Martha as mother..... {info from tree owner on Ancestry}


Thats the same probable birth I found for Charlotte/Mary Tedstone/Jones.

As for the marriage...even if she`d dropped 20 years of her age {which I think is highly unlikely} don`t think she`d be trying to say she was under 21........ there was no Nivea Visage in those days!!, so can`t beleive she`d manage to look 20 years younger!!!


I`m currently in the middle of tracing all the Thomas Tedstones from the 1881 census and onwards through to their marriages ,deaths etc....hoping if we have a stray one that it might be out Thomas...progress a bit slow as Internet keeps playing up, apparently a problem with BT... but connection is very slow and keeps dropping out...

As for wether Martha was daughter of Charlotte and her 1st husband, or Charlotte and Thomas Davies, or Thomas`s from a previous marriage don`t think we will ever know.....1841 census is notoriously unreliable, and this family seem to "look after" and "take on" each others children at the drop of a hat, so their true bloodline is very questionable.

Also think we do have a Publican Thomas...can`t be bothered to read back through all the pages of this thread, but should come across him soon as i`m halfway down the 1891 Census Thomas`s, will let you know if and when I find him....


Nicky

Nicky I have trawled through the thread, and cannot find a publican.

Then looked for deaths of William and Martha Jones. Possible for William, where's it gone? West Bromwich, No, everything is too slow.

Sorry, a wasted effort.

Margaret

Sorry you had to trawl back through all this thead Margaret.... hav`nt come across Thomas Tedstone ..Publican, bur feel sure that one of them is a publican...maybe one of his uncles?

What i have found is 2 Marthas marrying a James Tedstone..

One is widowed by 1871...are we on the wrong track,? is this our Martha??

I`m probably compicating things ,but with this family being so involved i don`t think we can presume anything.....

nicky




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I might be wrong but wasnt there a John Tedstone publican

There is a John Tedstone 1816 no place of birth occ brewer in Aston Union Workhouse in 1881

n

I didn't mind trawling Nicky - just wish I had found a publican. Another squint at the cert and I am even more confident it says Policeman, from the way the "o" is connected from the top to the "l", whereas "u"s are connected at the bottom.

Just noticed that Martha lost another 5 years between 1891 and 1901, but perhaps it was just son in law Ed's guess. Doesn't help in finding a death when she could be anything between 51 and 65 in 1901.

The publican is Robert George Tedstone, b 1823 who appears in the Ancestry tree (and on the 1871 census) as the brother of John Tedstone b 1825. I am not 100% convinced he is "ours" as our Robert was younger than John. But that must be where I got the publican idea from.

Posted a new thread, Shropshire Parish Records

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1203817

to see if anyone can come up with the birth of Martha Tedstone/Davies.

I've also emailed the Shrewsbury Records Office.

I was just not happy with Martha being a Davies in 1841, a Tedstone on the next three censuses and us thinking she was Martha Davies. Who managed to lose 15 years between 1871 and 1901.

Well, it might do nothing, but worth a try, I thought.

Might get some new person involved with half a brain, cos mine has gone AWOL.

Love

Margaret

I hope you have directed them to this thread to compare what has been found.

I was never happy with the birth date of Jessie Tedstone. I can accept the year being wrong but not the day

I can't get my head round the Martha thing,is it that she was a Tedstone by birth and had a child Tedstone by a Tedstone or what.

Keeps the grey cells going anyway.

Maryb

Hi Margaret and all still following/contributing to this thread....... just had a PM from Marian asking about tracing Paupers graves, and saying she`d had no luck going through the Thomas Tedstone deaths...

I`ve copied and pasted my reply to her below, so you all know where we are with it...

Hi marian..... Yes I`v just now manged to get through all the Thomas Tedstones and have managed to match up most of the deaths....

The only Thomas Tedstone with a father also called Thomas comes from Pembridge Hereford, b 1863 { a bit old going by the age of Thomas on his marriage cert. to Mary Jane Bradford}and his father was a Farm Baliff in 1881 and a labourer in 1891, he then died in 1892.

Son Thomas is a Blacksmiths apprentice age 17 in 1881, can`t find him in 1891, by 1901 hes Blacksmith living with his sister Mary{Margaret} also born Pembridge , and then in 1911 hes still a Blacksmith , still single and still living with the unmarried sister Mary {Margaret}. I then found what I think is his death in Bromyard 1942 age 78 years.

The Thomas Tedstone born Clun, living with his Uncle and Auntie which we think is the correct one, never appears on the Census after 1881., and i can`t find a death to fit his age....

I have no knowledge of Paupers graves I`m afraid, and I had already checked the passenger lists on FMP, but there is no Thomas Tedstone listed. I think Ancestry may have more lists, so may be worth taking a look there.


Nicky

Quinsgran, following Nicky's previous good advice about certificates from the GRO I've emailed the Dudley RO to prey on their good nature to check the original records in case 28 September is correct.

I now wonder if she was baptised on that date and Uncle wotsit Hadley being a lay preacher might have insisted on celebrating baptismal days instead of birthdays.

Re paupers graves, a great many of our relatives would have been buried in such graves around that time, unless they were well off enough to buy a burial plot, or unless they were buried in a churchyard. Different cemeteries have different names for paupers graves - common graves, board graves, county graves. They weren't always in a separate part of the cemetery. Cemeteries (local authorities) should have records, and I have found many relatives from a simple request - and often free of charge.

I have just checked the web for suitable cemeteries in that area, and there are four around Stourbridge/Halesowen which were open then. Unfortunately the are controlled by Dudley Council who charge £10.20 per half hour search. You could see if they are willing to do a one-off quick search for (Mary) Jane Tedstone in 1892/3 for free - my friend who has lots of Birmingham area rellies has managed this a few times.

Madmeg
I have to go out now but I was just thinking. We have been looking for Jessie Tedstone. What if she was Jessica.

Clutching at straws here but there is a Jessica Ralphs 1894 dec qt Wem Shropshire. Can someone look for her on the census ?This date would tie in with Jessie being born 28th Sept 1894

Quinsgran, no sign of Jessica Ralph after the birth, nor any death. I often wonder what happens to these people. There are several other Jessies around in 1894. Maybe we should do what Nicky has done with Thomas Tedstones and trace them all to eliminate them.

PS are you really the gran of quins?

No Madmeg. Im not a gran of quinns but I have a grandson with that name

You put Jessica Ralph. The birth is Ralphs. She must be somewhere

I can see a Lizzie Ralphs age 7 born Wem and living Wem. I wonder if this is a mistranscription

Ok Quinsgran, I missed off the s. But here:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Jessica Ralphs
Name: Jessica Ralphs
Death Registration Month/Year: 1916
Age at death (estimated): 21
Registration district: Wem
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 845

Not found in 1911.

Quinsgran, I know you aint happy with the birthdate of Jessie Tedstone being 19th Sept instead of 28th. I take your point, people forgot the year, very often, but not the date. I wish we could find a Jessie with the exact birthdate. But all else points to her being the child with the Hadleys in 1901, aged 8. If sh'ed been born 1894 she'd have been only 6. 1892 fits. In 1911 she is working in a button factory. Marian remembers her saying she worked in a button factory. Marian remembers her cousins being Dreadful Dennis and Bossy Beryl. Marian also remembers her gran and Jennie Hall going to the Midlands to look after Annie (though they might not have known she was called Annie at the time) when she died. Her gran is the Jessie Tedstone with the Hadleys, of that I am 100% confident. Birth date or not. Why are you not? I am not dismissing your doubts, just wonder why you have them, about Jessie.

Why are you wanting to look for another Jessie?

I don't think Jessie is in doubt. I've emailed the local records office to see if the birth cert from the GRO had an error. So lets see if that turns anything up. Her mother Mary Jane/Jane/Jennie might be still an issue. I don't think we'll get much more proof of that. We have a birth of Mary Jane Bradford with a sister Annie, we have Annie marrying John Hadley with the abominable kids, we have Mary Jane marrying Thomas Tedstone, we have no sign of her after that. Whether or not she died or is Jennie Bradford who married Robert Hall is still a problem, but she died as Jane Hall, as she was Jane Tedstone on the birth of Jessie. There is no Jane/Jennie born Ruabon, that was a fabrication. Somehow Jane Bradfrod/Tedstone/Hall heard of Ruabon and claimed it as her birthplace. Maybe she worked in service with a girl from Ruabon, and remembered it. It seems a bit far-fetched, I admit, but this family were not dummies by the sounds of it, joining the Communist Party etc.

I wish there was a more provable answer, but something went on down in Halesowen in 1892 and we don't know what it was.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I am shouting at you, emails do that don't they? and I too keep looking for possible new solutions, and don't stop.

For instance I found a load of Halls with nieces/grand-daughters called Hadley - I forget what I found now, we are onto 17 pages! I will drag em all up again and have another look.

I DO see why you are querying it, but apart from the date of 19th instead of 28th, everything else does point to that child being Marian's grandmother.

Now all those Tedstones that everyone has found, I am much less sure about. We can probably produce a book on "The Tedstones of Shrophsire" at the end of it, but I am totally unconvinced that we have the right father in Thomas, b 1867, by just picking out the only Thomas that can be found of the right sort of age. We are stuck with his father being a policeman, and there is no such Thomas it seems. So I am putting all that lot on the back-burner for the moment.

So is it just that birthdate you are not happy with?

Best wishes

Margaret