Genealogy Chat

It's just dawned on me that the John Francis I have found born in Worcester in 1844 and who died in Worcester in 1909 could be another red herring. Dorothy was supposedly a widow in 1904 when she died and if that was her on the census, when she was housekeeping, it also states widow. She could, of course, have been fibbing!

Thanks Sylvia - I really did think it was me. What an extraordinary thing to do.

Think I need to give my brain a rest from this one for a while. I have spent a lot of time researching John, Kate and Dorothy although it probably doesn't look like it. I will trawl through the Birmingham records just in case.

Best wishes and thanks

Hi ann

Hugh Wallis has more apparent information than the IGI precisely because familysearch rotate information in and off the site.

I have no idea WHY they do, someone told me they did years ago, and I've since found records "missing" months after I had found them



sylvia

Have looked through all the Worcester records on the Hugh Wallis site, where the dates cover the period I am looking at, but nothing is coming up for any marriage between Kate Dyer and John Francis. Dorothy's birth date is not covered. I already have the baptism details for Kate and the possible John Francis. I will scroll through the Birmingham records but not sure when I will be able to do it.

Why do familysearch rotate data? And how does Hugh Wallis have more info than IGI when he has taken the information from the batch numbers? Sorry if these are daft questions!

Have just started looking through the Hugh Wallis/IGI records - I could play on there for hours. Will try to have a better look later but think today could be a write-off in that respect. Some of the records finish too early for what I am looking for.

Thanks again. Should have spent more time on there before.

Yes I always knew Dorothy was shown as being born in Worcester on one census but for some reason Birmingham on another. Worcester Records Office have also looked for birth details - they were the ones who found her baptism record. They suggested a birth for a Dorothy Francis, which was in London, but it wasn't the right one. I'm pretty sure I've checked every Dorothy Francis but will look again for Birmingham. She was only baptised with one first name.

Didn't know the records changed on familysearch. I've had this problem before but thought it was me losing it! I have put the Hugh Wallis website in my favourites but never really known how it worked - I'll have to investigate. Thanks for that info.

finally found the 1901 Census!


Name: Mary Dyar
Age: 73
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Worcester
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Worcester
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Worcester
Sub registration district: Worcester

Mary Dyar 73 Widow
Frederick J Dyer 13 Grandson
Dorothey Francis 11 Granddaughter, b.ca 1890, BIRMINGHAM
Harbert Wright 18 Boarder

Address:- Stirling Mount, Somers Road



did you see where Dorothy was born on this census??????????????




sylvia

Ann

you may not know, but familysearch does rotate records in and out, so you may find a record today, and then not be able to find it 6 months from now, or vice versa.

Try looking on the Hugh Wallis site ........ Hugh took all the extracted records from the IGI and set up a web site, unfortunately he hasn't updated it since about 2004 so any records entered since that time are not on there. BUT he will have records that may not be on the IGI

Google Hugh Wallis ........................ the web address is incredibly long!


Jack is a common nickname for John, just as Harry is common for Henry




sylvia

Hello Gemma and Sylvia

So sorry I haven't been able to look on here earlier. Visiting v. sick relation and looking after much loved granddaughter.

Okay - Kate Dyer was born in 1853 and died in 1904 in the Union Workhouse, Worcester. Dorothy Francis was born in 1890 +- 1. She is shown on the 1891 census living with her grandparents aged 1 year. No sign of Kate. On the 1901 census she is 11 years old and still with her grandparents. Dorothy was baptised in 1905 showing parents as Kate and John Francis. Cannot find any record of her birth - GRO have looked as well for the year 1890 +- 1-2. Can't find anything for Dorothy Dyer either.

C Mason Dyer is the son of Mary Ellen Dyer and Robert Mason - this took a little while to unravel as I had previously thought she was a Mary Elizabeth Dyer.

The family in the 1881 census is Dorothy's and Kate's family. In the 1891 and 1901 census they are shown to be living in Somers Road, Worcester. The death certificate for Kate shows her as being admitted to the Workhouse from Somers Road.

As I said yesterday, I mysteriously managed to find a John Francis - born 1844 (well, christened) and died in Worcester 1909. These dates tie in very well. Found this info on IGI but cannot understand why I couldn't find it before! Unfortunately cannot as yet find any marriage details for him. This gives me fresh hope though.

Hope I haven't left anything out.

Thanks

Ann

Edit: John was obviously also known as Jack as when Dorothy Francis married George Savage (not the father of her daughter!) in 1918 her father was named as Jack Francis

I can't find Dorothy in 1901?

I'm going back to the beginning !!!

Is this Kate with ehr fmaily in 1881?


1881 Census

Name: Kate Dyer
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Worcester Blockhouse
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street address: 42 St Paul St (Grocers Shop)

Registration district: Worcester
Sub registration district: South Worcester

George Dyer 55 b.ca 1826, Gloucestershire, Grocer
Mary Dyer 54
Kate Dyer 28
Alfred Dyer 21
Annie Dyer 19
W.Charles Dyer 16
William A. Dyer 10
C.Mason Dyer 4 Grandson
Annie Egginton 18 Servant



whose child was C Mason Dyer???? was he Annie's or Kate's?




sylvia

I see...Kate certainly isnt an easy lady to pin down....ive tried various spellings of both surnames and im not getting anywhere.

Im assuming that Dorothy was baptised after both of her parents had died? I wonder if it is possible that she was born under a different name and her grandparents didnt know/changed it?

In my family i spent ages looking for the birth of a Walter John SURNAME (as written on Census, his marriage and death.) I eventually found his baptism as William Walter Holt SURNAME and then his birth registration as William SURNAME.

Hopefully your trip to Worcester will shead some light on this.

No birth registration for Dorothy - only baptism aged 15. She is on 1891 and 1901 census living with grandparents. Have been on to various workhouse sites showing Worcester Union and they're really interesting.

I think I will have to pay a visit to Worcester to try and find Kate's marriage details and Dorothy's birth details although baptism shows Kate and John Francis. Won't be able to do it for a while though.

Ann,
Do you have Dorothy's birth certificate?
If she was born a year prior to the census, perhaps the address on it would give some clues as to Kates whereabouts?

Have you seen the site workhouses.org. It has some background information on the Worcester Union Workhouse (though nothing to help you locate Kate.)

Hi Sylvia

Have today received the death certificate for John Francis. Nothing to confirm he is the one I am looking for but I haven't ruled him out. Somehow today I have managed to come up with a much more promising John Francis on IGI This one was born in Worcester in 1844, which would make him 46 when Dorothy Francis was born. Looks like probable death for him was Dec qtr 1909 in Worcester. He looks a likely candidate but I cannot find him on any census, although I am going to check that yet again! Still cannot find marriage between John Francis and Kate Dyer, but again will look again. I shall soon have repetitive strain injury just from these two alone!

Edit: Have found a possible John on 1891 and another John on 1871. Have a definite John on 1851 who is the John born 1844 to William and Elizabeth. Still need a connection with Kate Dyer.

Ann


I also couldn't find a suitable Kate Francise on any other census!

It will be interesting to see what the death certificate says.



sylvia

Hi Sylvia

Have run off the 1901 census and can now see your thinking. Have googled Noke Court which comes up under British History Online. Will keep all this info as probable as you suggest. Kate Francise is shown as being born in Worcester, Worcestershire.

Ann

Edit: No Kate Francise shown on 1881 or 1891. There are various other Francise but none from around Worcester or shown in Gloucester.

Hi Sylvia

I am waiting for a death certificate for a John Francis but I won't know if it is the right one until I see it - maybe not even then!

Dorothy's death certificate shows she died of dropsy in the workhouse. Have tried (through Worcester Records Office) to obtain details of her stay in the workhouse but have been advised that no records exist for the period 1890 to 1904 which is when she could have been in there. She was shown as a widow on her death certificate in 1904 which was registered by the Master of the workhouse.

Will await John Francis's death certificate which should be sent out today.

Ann

I'd be tempted to file it as probable!


perhaps you could see if you can find John Francis' death .... she does say she's a widow on the 1901.

have you managed to get her death certificate? That might say how long she had been ill, or in the Workhouse.

Don't forget that workhouses often had the only hospitals as well ................ so people might die in the hospital part, but it would be registered as the workhouse.


see if you can if the workhouse records are held anywhere, and whether you can get access to them ..... this would tell you when she was admitted.



sylvia

Okay Sylvia - thank you. Will see what I can find, but I don't really know where to go next - or do I just file it as a possible?

Ann