Genealogy Chat

I wouldn't worry too much about the Chapel Street issue. In my experience families moved up and down the street. When another child came along and they could afford something bigger they'd put the word out. A neighbour/friend would tell them any places they knew of to rent. same thing happened when there was a downturn in fortune.

My own great grandparents moved up and down the same street several times, often within a few months. Bearing in mind ggran was having babies every year, I have only got two who were born at the same address. The one in between was born elsewhere.

Thanks to all that have esponded to my initial request.

I have followed up on many of the leads and ideas that were presented in your replies, however I am still no further forward as who the fifth person (Ann O'Brien) actually is in the grave.

The body was brought to the cemetery from No 9 Chapel Street, Holborn,
(now Rugby Street, changed name in 1937). I have looked in the 1891 and 1881 census to see if there was a funeral parlour or something similar at this address, but nothing came up. The only thing is that here was an Irish "Monthly Nurse" living there in the 1891 census. The dictionary gives this job as a nuse who attends mother and child for a month after the birth.

Regards
Stuart

Hi Julie,

Thanks for that. The Metropolitan Archives are on my list of things to do as I have a couple of other issues I need to investigate.

Regards
Stuart

Hi Stuart
Wasn't sure if I'd directed you adequately to the Strand Union info.

Records are held as follows:

London Metropolitan Archives, 40 Northampton Road, London EC1R OHB.
Edmonton Union: Guardians' minutes (1837-1930); Lists of paupers (1879-1930); Lists of pauper children (1919-30); Register of emigrants (1925).
Edmonton House: Births (1886-95); Creed registers (1876, 1881-1938)
Enfield House: Creed registers (1908-40)
Chase Farm: Creed registers (1887-1907)

LMA are teaming up with Ancestry and digitising their records so this info could be on line sometime this year (if it isn't already-I haven't actually looked)

See here for more info:

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Leisure_and_culture/Records_and_archives/Ancestry+digitisation.htm

Julie

Hi Margaret,

Thanks for that. I will try and see what I can find for Mary Ann (nee Clifford) Donegan.
I think I have the right death place for her. It was Chorlton, Lancs, Q1 1902.
In the 1901 census she was living at 72 West Fleet Street, Salford Manchester.

Regards
Stuart

Hi Stuart

Manchester City Council (I think) have a link on their website to burial grounds in the area which you can search for free.

Margaret

Hi Margaret,

Thanks for the info.
In answer to your questions:
- Yes they were Catholic.
- I have found two other siblings, one was buried at Spa Fields Burial
ground East London. I think the other was buried in Manchester.

Regards
Stuart

Hi again Stuart

Just a thought. Were they Roman Catholics? If so, it would have been quite important for Ann to have been buried on consecrated ground, especially in the Roman Catholic area.

Did grandfather have other siblings, and if so do you where they were buried?

I know times have changed, but in two weeks I am having my mum's ashes interred in the "family grave" 30 miles from where she was cremated. It just seems right. Roman Catholics again.

Margaret

I think Kath is right -people often moved within the same street -it seems too close to be co-incidental. They may have brought her home for a wake before she was buried. There is a link on the workhouses site to records that are available for Strand Union so you may be able to get more info that way.

Should have said,for Stuart and anyone else who's interested, if you go to the workhouses site don't go straight to the Edmonton link as it doesn't show the connection. Go to London and click on Strand. The Strand Union/Board of Guardians got heavy condemnation for the conditions in one of their buildings & built the new workhouse at Edmonton on an estate they already owned.
Stuart, as the death was registered by the workhouse master rather than family it is quite possible she was known there/admitted there under a wrong or abbreviated name. My Great Grandmother's surname was Moughan but when she was in the Bradford Union Horton Workhouse they had her down as Morgan. She had a baby there who only lived for 12 days - the baby's birth and death were both registered as Morgan as was my Grt Grandmother's death. I know it's my family because it fit's with a family story and I have all the certificates which also name my Grt Grandfather -they just got the surname wrong (Imagine how long it took to trawl through the BMD Index to find that out!)
I believe it was customary for people's family to be informed of their death and to be asked if they would arrange the burial - if they didn't/couldn't then the person would be buried in a Public (Paupers) grave.
Julie

Hi Quinsgran,

Thanks for your comments.

The grave is a prviate grave. I cannot find any children from this marriage, although I guess that does not mean there were none !!

I just find it strange that she should be brought from Edmonton to Holborn to a house that does not appear to have a famiy conection either on the Clifford side or the O'Brien (Brien) side, and then moved to the cemetery at Kensal Green. It all assumes she is the same person I am looking at.

The death date and the burial date are 5-6 days apart (8th January 1890 to 13 January 1890)

Just out of interest there are 96 Cliffords buried at the St Mary's Kensal Green Cemetery on my listing.

Regards
Stuart

Stuart.
Could it be that Ann O Brien ( possible Johanna Clifford) was moved from Edmonton to her burial place simply because it was a family plot paid for.

It could be since she was a widow she might have ended in a paupers grave if she didnt

1881 census.
Johanna Brian widow1834 Ireland
William son 1872 Spitalfields.Middlesex
Joseph son 1874 Spitalfields

Address 11 New Court George Yard Whitechapel

Hi All who answered, Thanks for your input

Julie, for your info the death was notified by the Master of Strand Union Workhouse, Edmonton, whose name is given as Jno Hy Roach on the death cert ( I am presuming John Henry Roach). She died of Bronchitis (2 weeks).

Regards
Stuart

Hi Stuart
If you google www.workhouses.org.uk you will find lots of info on the Strand Union workhouses including Edmonton. I think you will be able to make the connection with the area of London your family lived in. The site includes a list of 'Inmates' in 1881 but there is no Brien or O'Brien listed. I am wondering if the Johanna O' Brien found in the Norwood Lunatic Asylum was later transferred to the Edmonton Workhouse???
Out of interest who registered Ann O'Brien's death and what did she die of (may give further clues)?
Julie

In my own research I have found that my family never owned any of the houses they lived in - just rented. They often moved from one house to another in the same street (for who knows what reason!!). Perhaps they just moved when they needed more or less rooms.

This could be the case with your ancestors.

Kath. x

Hi All,

Got a marriage cert and the death cert this morning an a few interesting points:

Marriage cert shows she marries as Johanna Clifford, age 21, spinster, living at 9 Duke Street, Lincoln's Inn Fields to John Brien, age 22, of 2 Orange Court, Drury Lane. at the Sardinian Chapel, on 5 Feb 1854.
Her father is given as John Clifford, Upholsterer, and his father as Timothy Brien, Husband Man (some sort of animal farmer ?).
Her address is given as 9 Duke Street, Lincoln's Inn Fields, which is the family address in the 1851 census.

The Death cert shows an Ann O'Brien, age 62, widow of John O'Brien (Clement Danes, Drury Lane) died 8 Jan 1890 at the Strand Union Workhouse, Edmonton.

Question is, is the Johanna (nee Clifford) Brien in the marriage cert and the Ann O'Brien in the death cert the same person ??

The body is brought from 9 Chapel Street (now Rugby Street) Holborn, to the RC Cemetery at St Mary's Kensal Green for burial on 13 January 1890.

Further research shows the Clifford family living at 15 Chapel Street in the 1891 census. No family ties appear in the 1891 census for 9 Chapel Street.

All very confusing. Would welcome any further ideas as to this situation.

Regards
Stuart

***N***

Waiting for the Marriage and Death Certs. Hopefully they will shed some light on the mystery

Hi Lynda and Shelly

Thanks for the info. I have been to the St Mary's Cemetery and spoken with the Superintendant. He is certainly a very good source of info (and Irish to boot !!). He showed me the burial entry for Ann O'Brien , and this says she was brought from Chapel Street, Holborn, London.
Further research has shown that Chapel Street had its name changed after WWII and is now call Rugby Street (extra confusion)
If the FreeBMD entry that Kathleen Bell found (see above) where she died in Edmonton is correct, then its a long round about trip for a burial - Edmonton to Holborn to Kensal Green, if its the same person.

I have splashed out some money (expensive !) and sent off for the marriage cert with a John Brien (Mar 1854, St Giles 1b 443) and also for the death cert for Edmonton ( Jan-Feb-Mar 1890, 3a 242) and see what comes back.

I will also check out the census to see if any relations were living in that area at that time.

Thanks & Regards
Stuart

Stuart, she is going to be a relative. It is clearly a family grave, not a common grave. Keep digging (so to speak!).

Margaret