Genealogy Chat

Yes strange isnt it, but there was a mix like that in one of my lots wills in the early 18th century.

Following on from Heather's post re 'Shilling'

I am really starting to think there could be more to this than first meets the eye...

In the will the father leaves 'one shilling' to his son John and wife but ten pounds to his daughter Mary....So maybe he has already settled money on John during his lifetime and uses the 'shilling' clause to ensure no further debate about his intention especially as he leaves a then 'substantial' sum to an apparently unmarried daughter.

What still worries me is the fact he hasn't done the same for Robbart, as in leave him a shilling to indicate he has already benefited financially in his lifetime.

Wild speculation but maybe Father and Robbart had a big falling out and father decided to give him all the work as Executor without any financial gain except for expenses....He was still named/recognised in the will but didn't get any financial benefit so that passed the 'shilling' test?....But that would only work if Robbart was of an age for him to fall out to that extent with his father.

Curiouser and Curiouser!!!
Chris

Cant remember the occupation now- too lazy/busy to read through. But if he were say a farmer, it may be the land was passed over to son earlier?

Dear All
My reluctance to make public 'the will' is making it really hard for you all and I feel really bad about this, but it is not mine to show around.
In an attempt to make it slightly easier I will say this:-

The excerpt in the first post is the major part of the document!!!

Other than that there is a list of 26 one shilling bequests.

The beneficiaries are in 'family groups'
eg. "Matthew M_ _ _ _ _ _ _ and his wife either of them one shilling and for four children twelve pence apiece."

Each family group either has the same surname as the will writer, or if not the wife we know to have been of that name before marriage but the entry is in her husband's name.

Immediately after the bequests comes the line "Robbartt M_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ is to have three years time to paid in: and to Mary Heaviside two guineas."

and that is it apart from two male family members witnessing the will; one with his signature the other with a cross.

The daughter, Elizabeth Mary T_ _ _ _ _ _ was/or had been married but there is no mention of children, so possibly a widow?

There are no personal details and we have no idea of what William did or when or where he was born?

Apart from Robbart and Elizabeth there is no indication that any of the others are sons or daughters; they could be otherwise related.

Mary Heaviside did not become one of the family until 1729.

The will was written in Dec 1719 and proved in 1724.

This saves you the trouble of reading through everything!

Not a massive fortune though - my GGFx4 left each of 12 kids £3k each in 1823 plus his house and "securities at the Bank of England" to one of his son in laws.

A piece of information

I asked what the "legal age of majority" was, around 1700, and I got the reply that from 1695 until 1980, when it was reduced to 18, the voting age, or age of full citizenship was 21. I'm not quite certain if this equates with the age at which one was considered to be legally responsible? ... but if it does this must surely put a question mark beside nine or ten year old Robbartt's eligibility to be appointed a sole executor of his father's will.
In which case it was either not legal. or we have got Robert's age wrong. ... If he had to be 21, this would really help us with his DOB. Every cloud has a silver lining!!!

Hi Jacki
Firstly, I have just registered with Family Tree Forum and I'm currently waiting for my 'account' (it doesn't cost) to be activated. I found them at:-

http://www.familytreeforum.com/index.php

Secondly, yes £3000 was a lot of money. I checked it out whilst I was looking up today's value of the bequests in 'my' will.
Your ancestor's £3000, would be worth, wait for it !!!!
£1,894,458 ... that is if you relate it to average earnings then and now. Almost two million pounds!! Wow!!

OMG!!!
wot a shock......
it seems that his sons did well too all near enough having farming. though one of his sons william started out as a linin draper....wonder what happend to that??? jus because im curious to find out who else had a will mmmmm my taste buds are tingling.hahaha.
will sign up to the site u sed.
jacki

Have to jump in here and say that some of the sites which give you a value of money today arent strictly accurate, they dont take into account a lot of factors such as the cost of living/inflation and so on nor the availability of goods, supply and demand. For example, a horse may have cost £20 in the 17th century (this is just a guess) and a loaf of bread a farthing. There is no way that would equate to the comparative value of those items today.

Considering my GGFX4 gave away £36k in 1823, he was a wealthy man but Im sure he wasnt a billionaire :)

Hi Heather
I used 'Measuring Worth', which seems from comments I have read, to be quite well thought of?
Out of interest, I have been back to the site and I checked out the relative value of a farthing in 1850 and 2007. ... There are two values given; one using the 'retail price index' and the second 'average earnings'.
Using RPI a farthing is now worth 8.5p ... or about 77p according to the average earnings scale.
£20 is £1,647 according to RPI; almost £15,000 related to average earnings.
A loaf - one farthing (a good guess I think?): now about 80p, or a bit more.
A horse - £20: now anything from £6000 upwards, the sky being the limit!!
I think for both of those items the higher figure , relating to average earnings is the most applicable today.
Obviously there is going to be variation, especially with things that were luxuries then and are commonplace now and vice versa, but I have checked out quite a few figures and, for the most part, think that the higher figure (relating to average earnings) is generally more applicable today. ... but, as with so many things one has to use judgement and common sense.
This is just my take on the matter and I'm no financial expert; quite the opposite!!
However, I think your relative Heather, by today's standards, was seriously wealthy. I do hope his beneficiaries invested wisely and the bounty has filtered down to you?
Was it your birthday ... or was it another Heather?

Hi Carole

I have not read the whole thread, but saw a mention of Durham

Now Durham is in England, that much we all know

but going back several hundred years (Northumberland)

was English one minute Scotish the next

As far down as Newcastle the boundaries would often change.

Just a thought

Ray

Hi Ray
Good to be back on track. It is so easy to get pleasurably side-tracked on these boards. I'm one of the worst offenders, as I love to chat and I love gathering information.
But back to the will.
I don't think there is much more to be learned about the actual will ... but I WOULD like to know if a nine year old child could be sole executor? ..Only because it might indicate that the executor wasn't nine?? We might have his DOB wrong: and if we have, it changes quite a lot of things: things not related to the will.
Thank you for your input. I understand the slant; ... rules being different in England and Scotland ... But I think Durham, particularly south Durham, was firmly rooted in England in 1719.

I dont know if a nine year old could be sole executioner ?

but I beleive children had to grow up pretty fast back then

All the best

Ray x

Carole, my birthday :)

Well, the guy was at the Royal Docks in Deptford - his job was to work out the rations for the Royal Navy and then Merchant Navy ships aswell. (This was Pirates of the Caribbean era). I should imagine he had more than his fair share of the odd barrel of rum and pig go missing when he did this.

He was descended from aristocracy but the poor side and though his gran was very wealthy I dont think his family or he was that wealthy to start with. Certainly 20 kids and 2 wives all told must have cost him a bit, ditto one son who was continually in debtors prison and then turned up as a witness in his bro in laws court case, having stated he was a Berger of Amsterdam? (hmm, a right pain I should think)>

Also, 2 months before my GGFx4 died, for some reason he decided that my direct ancestor, his daughter Sophia would lose her £3k which was then passed to the above mentioned bro. sickening - wonder if Id be here now though if GGMx3 had been wealthy in her own right.

Hmmm Heather

Certainly a 'colourful' lot but it doesn't appear that he did badly out of it? One does wonder exactly how he managed to amass quite so much money with so many dependents? Perhaps he did inherit somewhere along the line?
Pity about Sophia!!!

URM I HOPE I HAVENT CAUSED A RUKERS WITH OUR LIL CHAT ABT MY WILLYS WILL?
THAT WASNT MEANT T HAPPEN...
WELL I HAVE JOIND THE FAMILY TREE FORUM BUT CANT SEEM T FIND HOW TO UPLOAD IT FOR SOMEONE TO READ THRU IT.
A LADY FROM THE SITE EMAILED ME TO SAY YOU HAD MOVED THE THREAD SO MORE PEPLE COULD SEE IT AND SHE SAID ABUT USING PAPERCLIP?????
MMMMM HAVENT GOT A CLUE WOT THATS ALL ABOUT AND I HAVE HAD ALOOK TO SEE IF THERE WERE INSTRUCTIONS ON THIS BUT DIDNT FIND ANYTHING BUT THE LADY DID SAY SHE WASNT SURE IF U CAN UPLOAD IT ALL ON THERE..CAROLE DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA ?
DID YOU GET SINGED IN YET.(PASSWORD?)
JACKI

Robbartt could have qualified as sole executor if a guardian had already been appointed for him.

Well 8 of the kids died along the way. May be both wives came with money aswell. He also left a rather nice house in Loam Pit Hill apparently. His fathers will left several properties in east london and some farmland in what is now south east london but all to his wife. Not sure what happened when she went, never really thought about it, but may be John got some of that dosh.

Don't Worry Jacki

Good-natured banter as far as I'm concerned. I take all points of view on board but like to put my point. It's a mental exercise as much as anything. I think Heather is the same ... I don't think either of us feels upset? I certainly hope not!

As for the Forum; I have no idea what 'paperclip' is but I will try to find out if you like. Could it be something to do with cut and paste? I'm not that good with computers, so help from me is a bit like the blind leading the blind. Added to which I use a Mac, not a PC.

But hopefully, someone in the know will read this and THEY might offer you some advice?

I have sent a PM regarding alternative help with your will.
Carole

On FTF what I do is scan a doc or pic into my puter, add it to photobucket and then generate the code on there and put that on FTF.

Alternatively, scan bit you cant read into your puter then start a new thread, click on the paper clip that is one of the icons along the top of the new box, that will open another box asking you to browse for your document - when you find it, upload it and then go back to the FTF thread and click on the paperclip icon (or next to it, cant remember now :)) and it will show the doc name, just click on it to add it to the message box.

ALTERNATIVELY, go on there, ask someone to help you :) You can send them the scan of the bit you cant read and they will upload it for you. Everyone is very friendly and more than happy to help.

Must go, 10 years younger on tv :)