Genealogy Chat

I sent for 10 certificates and just received them this morning.
As I wanted to see the signatures etc of my ancestors, I decided to apply for them from the local registration office rather than the GRO. I put in my letter that I would like photo copies, I am disappointed that every one is the same handwriting, the handwriting of the registrar who issued them to me!

On one of the death certs the initial of the person who registered the death is clearly a T and was the son. Now I know this person did not have any sons with the initial T but did have a son Sydney who lived at the same address given on the cert. If I was new to this and didnt already have this information I could have spent ages looking for this son with initial T but if I had the original I would be able to make my own mind up what the initial was instead of having to rely on their transcription.

Any way rant over.
Have any of you had the same?

Hi

Not all register offices provide scans of the original..there used to be a list on here of which ones that did, but I cant find it.

Hello J,

I did the same thing when I started on GR, my family came from Scotland but hubby's were English and came from Durham.
I therefore sent to Durham Records Office for the certificates and they were all in the same handwriting so I did know someone had just copied the info onto blank certificates. I did learn from that to make sure any others were ordered from GRO.

Betty

When I started my family history some years ago I ordered the birth cert for my gt grandmother direct from the local office where she was born...I was so disappointed to see that it was type written!

Not only that they had typed the maiden name of my 2x gt grandmother incorrect...they had typed Longworthy and not Langworthy. Thank goodness the informant was a maternal aunt who was married and I was able to find the correct surname through this marriage.

I stick with the GRO now.

Linda

Every certificate,no matter where you obtain it,is a copy of an entry in a register.
Unless it is a photostat of that register it will not have the handwriting of anyone other than the person who made the copy.

Thanks for your reply's everyone.
It is frustrating because I have heard time & time again people saying it is better to get them from the local registrar, and ask for a photocopy (which I did). In my eyes they have not fulfilled my request, I never even put "if possible" I asked for photocopies of the certs.
Shouldn't they have got in touch and said "sorry we can not supply photocopies only transcribed copies, do you still want us to go through with the order?"

They had my e-mail address so it wouldn't have cost them.

These were all reasonably recent certs. The births all being between 1890 & 1900 but the earliest death, which there were more of, was 1951.
I can understand if the original documents are old and in poor condition, but the likely hood of all these 10 relatively modern certs being in that state is very unlikely I would have thought.
The point is I wanted a copy of the original rather than a transcription, whether it was my ancestors handwriting or not.
Even if they made their mark it would be their mark I would be seeing on a copy of the original. How do I know if they have trancribed dates correct or not? At least if I transcribe them wrong its my own fault. But now I have no way of knowing how clear or unclear it actually is.

Around 90% of register offices supply copy certs and the majority will scan the original register.

The original thread listing was deleted by GR two years ago (it was my thread originally, listed alphabetically by office name), the newer version is around somewhere but suffers from the same problem mine had including posts claiming that GRO certs are originals!!!

When ordering it is best to ask for a scan and state that the office must inform you if this is not possible BEFORE they issue a copy cert. It may be that the original is too fragile or would be damaged during the process (local offices are obliged to preserve the documents).

Supply a contact number, in every case where i have done so i have had a call explaining the situation in advance where the original can't be scanned.

If i can just clarify a point from the last post.....
"Even with copies of original certificates, J, if the ancestors could not read or write you still end up with a cert in the handwriting of the clerk or registrar."............

The cert is completed by the registrar anyway, it is just the signature(s) or their mark that would have been entered by the informant or the couple and winesses regardless of whether they could read or write.

However GRO certs are transcribed several times before the cert is created, this multiple transcription system can introduce errors that are less likely to appear on the original documents hence my preference for original documents when possible.

Yes one I got from a local office was disappointingly written in the hand of a young woman - Id hoped for a photocopy of the original, means so much more and as you say, less chance of further errors creeping in.

Jim please explain further?
Where do they get the information from then?

I know all the marriage ones are in the exact same format as I have seen numerous ones in the records offices. So I would presume the births & Deaths would be too.

I have my original marriage certificate and the originals of my childrens birth certificates none of them contain my handwriting because that is contained in the volumes held by Southampton Registrar.

Technically what we call certificates isn't quite right, but nonetheless the term is used on the documents themselves that we recieve from either the local office or the GRO...... "Warning a certifcate is not evidence of identity".
To be exact we should call them copies of the register but the usual term used by researchers and registrars is certificate.

GRO issued documents will have something along the lines of;

CERTIFIED to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of Births in the District above mentioned.

Local issued versions will say;

Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a register in my custody.


.

Thats exactly what I thought Glen. They are taken from the original Registers of when the birth/Death/ Marriage was registered and so would have the original signatures on them. Exactly the same as the marriages that you see in the Parish registers in the records offices.

Joan, Thats why there were no marriages ordered in this batch. I have already got their marriages from Parish records.

I shouldnt of put in my initial message that it was because I wanted to see the signatures - I do, but most of all I want the most primary source possible for my research.

If any of you are married, and have your certs.........dig them out.

You will not see your signatures on them.

I get scans via Lincoln, i sent for my original birth cert (i'm adopted) and the true/original signature of my birth mother appears on it, It matches with the letters in my adoption file and other documents so i can verify it is original as far as possible.

If anyone is confused about what may/may not be a scanned cert then looking at the visual i did on FTF might answer a query or two.
There are partial extracts of locally issued scanned and handwritten certs as well as GRO variants.

http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/index.php/BMD_Certificates

As far as I am aware no certificate, whenever issued will ever contain an actual signature, even the original certificate is only ever a copy of the register.

The only document which might contain actual signatures, is the original register, which in the case of say a church wedding would be held in the church safe, until such time when the book is full or the church ceases to perform marriages, when it would be transferred to the local records archive.

I don't think that the local GRO even get to see the original, only a copy as advised by the official presiding at the wedding.

For births and death again, I don't think there is ever any copy of a signature held at the local GRO.

So, which ever version you get all it will ever be is a copy in the hand of the registrars clerk at the time, whether it be a scan of a long since deceased official or from the pen of a modern miss, or in some cases, typewritten.

Peter

There is no such thing as the local GRO

It's either a local register office (who hold the original register, which does have the original signatures and can be copied onto a certificate and issued as a copy certificate)

Or it's the General Register Office (GRO) who hold transcribed copies of transcribed records issued from the local registrar.

If you care to look at the link i posted above you can plainly see that there are differences between local and GRO issued certificates. An extract of a locally issued death certificate shows quite obvious differences in the letter "L" written by the registrar and the signature given by the informant.

Although not shown in the examples the marriage certs from Lincoln also quite clearly show original signatures, comparing them to the name entries for the couple elsewhere on the certificate show they are written by different hands.

It is ONLY a local registrar who can supply a copy of the original register (there is only one original register) in the form of a certificate.
Once a marriage register is full it has to be deposited with the registrar as they are legally obliged to preserve the documents, not the records office.

All I know is that all the ones that I have ordered from the GRO look as though they are hand written (signatures/names look in the same hand) I have been led to believe over the last few years of reading peoples threads on here and over at FTF that I would probably get original photo copies with proper signatures from the local Register Office.
But as I said even if I dont get the signatures I would at least like the copy to be in the hand of the original registra rather than the registra of today.

My wed cert is not where I thought it should be, will have to look for it now.