Genealogy Chat

Yes Thats the one

What about the witnesses to the marriage?

Rose

Sorry Rose, what about them

Billy

Billy I think Rose means that if any of the witnesses had same surnames as bride and groom they could be related so you could search for a family with those names

Ok, No they had different names

billy

Is this who you think is Edith in 1881?
Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
John W. MERCER Head M Male 41 Childwall, Lancashire, England Tailor
Elizabeth MERCER Wife M Female 40 Cradley, Worcester, England
Edith Ann MERCER Daur U Female 11 Childwall, Lancashire, England Scholar
Archibald M. MERCER Son U Male 8 Childwall, Lancashire, England Scholar
Ann MERCER Mother W Female 71 Prescot, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth MERCER Sister U Female 42 Woolton, Lancashire, England Seamstress

Source Information:
Dwelling 36 Gateacre Brow
Census Place Much Woolton, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341891
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3721 / 87
Page Number 13

Rose

This was on the board last December

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=980036

There was a lot of info and advice provided then especially by Stan - have you got the death certs that he found?

Andy

HEHEHE I think I've cracked it!!

On the 1891 there is a John William HOLDEN with wife Ellen living in Bury. John is a "twister in cotton mill". The reason that this family caught my eye is that they have a daughter called Ellen MERCER, aged 3, who is shown as JWH's daughter. There's also a son Robert HOLDEN, aged 5 months. And here's JWH's marriage to Ellen senior:

Marriages Mar 1890
Holden John William Bury 8c 683
MERCER Ellen Bury 8c 683

So, Ellen senior was a MERCER, implying that daughter Ellen was either JWH's step-daughter, or he was indeed her natural father but she was registered as a Mercer because she was born before her parents married. I suspect that JWH was in fact her step-father, as I'm sure she would have used his surname if he had been her natural father - especially since he did marry her mother eventually.

The problem is, we are looking for an Edith, not an Ellen! And it appears that this one was indeed registered as Ellen:

Births Dec 1887
Mercer Ellen Bury 8c 499

So maybe she simply changed her name, deciding to call herself Edith rather than Ellen? Or maybe she was always called Edith, to avoid confusion with her mother Ellen? The other facts certainly seem to fit pretty well: she could have given her step-father's name for her father on her marriage cert, with the surname changed to Mercer rather than Holden to hide the fact that she was illegitimate (that certainly isn't uncommon!). The father's occupation on the cert matches JWH's occupation so that fits. And the fact that she was born in Bury also fits, as it explains why Edith & Daniel married there rather than in Oldham (usually a marriage was held at the bride's parish). If she was born in Dec 1887, then would have been aged 30 by the time of her marriage in 1818 - and it's quite feasible that a "30" could have been mistranscribed as a "39" when the details were copied into the register. And a birth in Dec 1887 ties in exactly with the age at death of Edith Ingham (Blackburn, Sep 1951 - aged 63) that Stan found on your previous thread.

Yes it's a bit tenuous (the Ellen to Edith assumption) but in light of the fact that the other leads on Edith seem to have dried up, I think it's worth pursuing. There is a Holden researcher of note on another site - if you like I could put a message up for her to see if she has any info on this John William Holden. I can't find this Ellen/Edith in 1901 - anyone else have a go?

Richard

Summary (what I reckon are the most likely certs!):

Births Dec 1873
INGHAM Daniel Blackburn 8e 319

Births Dec 1887
Mercer Ellen Bury 8c 499

Marriages Sep 1918
Ingham Daniel Mercer Bury 8c 990
(stated age: 34. Actual age if above is correct birth: 44)
Mercer Edith Ingham Bury 8c 990
(stated age: 39. Actual age if above is correct birth: 30)

Deaths Mar 1946
Ingham Daniel Blackburn 8e 434
(stated age: 76, Actual age if above is correct birth: 72)

Deaths Sep 1951
Ingham Edith Blackburn 10b 305
(stated age: 63. Actual age if above is correct birth: 63)

Summary: Daniel in the censuses (and possibly his parents):

1881:
Name: Daniel Ingham
Age: 7
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Oldham
County/Island: Lancashire
Street address: 16 Frank St
Registration district: Oldham
Sub registration district: Oldham Above Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Ingham 34 Bromely Kent
Mary Ingham 32 Oldham
Albert Ingham 9 Oldham
Daniel Ingham 7 Blackburn
Esther Ann Ingham 6 Oldham
Rebecca Ingham 4 Oldham
Sarah Ann Ingham 17 (sis in law) Oldham
Arthur Ingham Oldham

1891 (shown as David but rest of family fits):
Registration District: Oldham
Sub District: Oldham Below Town E
numerationDistrict: 30
Ecclesiastical Parish: St Andrews
Civil Parish: Oldham
Municipal Borough: Oldham
Address: 38, Cannon Street, Oldham
County: Lancashire
INGHAM, William Head Married M 46 Hawker Bromley Kent
INGHAM, Mary Wife Married F 44 Lancaster Lancashire
INGHAM, Albert Son M 19 Labourer Oldham Lancashire
INGHAM, David Son M 17 Labourer Blackburn Lancashire
INGHAM, Rebecca Daughter F 13 Labourer Oldham Lancashire
INGHAM, Arthur Son M 10 Oldham Lancashire
INGHAM, George Son M 8 Blackburn Lancashire
INGHAM, William Son M 4 Oldham Lancashire
RG12 Piece: 3303 Folio: 81 Page: 61
(note: this entry is from findMyPast. Piece 3303 seems to be missing on Ancestry)

1901:
Name: Daniel Ingham
Age: 28
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Male
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: Coldhurst Holy Trinity
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham Below Town
ED, institution, or vessel: Oldham Union Workhouse
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1


This is possibly his parents in 1871 - though William Ingham is shown as born in Oldham rather than Bromley Kent as per 1881/91. I think that it's probably them though - two of Mary's siblings are Esther & Daniel (names that she later used for her children) and there is another sibling called Sarah Ann Ryan, who is probably the sister-in-law who was with them in 1881 (shown as "Sarah Ann Ingham" in 1881!):

Name: William Ingham
Age: 23
Relation: Son-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Oldham
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Oldham
Sub registration district: Oldham Below Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Household schedule number: 320
Household Members: Name Age
Peter Ryan 50
Margaret Ryan 43
Mary Ingham 23
William Ingham 23
Daniel Ryan 8
Esther Ryan 3
Sarah Ann Ryan 8
Thomas Ryan 13
William Ryan 17

... if correct, then this is their marriage:

Marriages Jun 1866
Ingham William Oldham 8d 1033
Ryan Mary Oldham 8d 1033


William's birth (Lewisham is next door to Bromley in Kent):

Births Mar 1846
Ingham William Lewisham 5 298

Ellen Mercer in 1891:

Civil Parish: Tottington Lower End
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Woolfall Heath
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Bury
Sub registration district: Tottington Lower End
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
John William Holden 30 Ramsbottom Lancs
Ellen Holden 26 Bury Lancs
Ellen Mercer 3 Bury Lancs
Robert Holden 3/12 Bury Lancs


birth & death of John William Holden:

Births Mar 1860
HOLDEN John William Bury 8c 347

Deaths Mar 1916
Holden John W 56 Blackburn 8e 554

(that ties in with him being deceased by the time of the marriage, in 1918).


Now just need to find Ellen/Edith in 1901!

Richard what a star and everybody else that has contributed, I will never get the jist of all this work you do and how you think, i shall order some Death certs and see what comes of it
Once again a big heart felt
THANK YOU xx

Billy

Richard if you could ask the person who is researching the Holden family to have a look please.
I have looked in the 1861 census and it has Mary ryan and a Father as Patrick yet in the 1871 it says Peter and on the marriage cert it says Patrick

Billy

Well done, Richard, I'd had a look myself and got nowhere near solving it.

Hi Billy

Well most of that info was already on your threads - I just summarised it! And do remember, the Ellen Mercer connection is just a possibility at this stage - you will certainly need to do some more work in order to verify it (or discount it). Certainly the first thing to do is to get those death certs! Do post us the details once you get the certs, as I'm sure there are quite a few people following your thread who will be interested!

I've put up a thread on the other board re John Holden, will let you know what comes of it. From your post above it sounds like you already have the marriage cert for William Ingham & Mary Ryan? If so, what were the details?

Richard

William Ingham 20 Bach Turner Greenacres Rd Richard ingham Willower

Mary Ryan 19 Spin Speed Tenter Hope St Patrick Ryan Plumber
2nd April 1866 Oldham
I have done it like that as i bet you can read a birth marr or death cert with your eyes closed lol
billy

Lol. well yes I think that the Peter/Patrick switch is much like the Daniel/David switch that we saw on the 1891 census. Remember that the "original" census forms that we see on Ancestry or FindMyPast are actually the enumerators returns - they were themselves transcribed from the individual household returns - and unfortunately the household returns were destroyed so we can't cross-check them. In those days most people were semi-literate at best so many of the household returns would have been hard to decipher (if not totally unreadable!). So it's easy to see how Patrick could become Peter, or Daniel become David! The official BMD certificates are more reliable, but are still liable to the occasional error or two! So in your case, it seems likely that your man was actually Patrick and not Peter. Sounds a lot more Irish, too! Anyway you're not having much luck really - now you've got Irish ancestry so if you thought that the English lot were hard, you ain't seen nothing yet!!

Richard

Well fancy dropping that bombshell on me, i havnt got my head round the English one yet

Billy

I have received the Death cert for Daniel Ingham thinking i would gleen some information from it but i dont think i can,
All it says is the informant was a A J Hopkinson of 129 Haslingdon road Blackburn, i was hoping it had his partners Name in there but it was not meant to be, What do you think i should do now

Billy