Genealogy Chat

Greeting’s again Sue……..

St. Margaret’s Parish Baptisms Registers Read thus :~

Fiche 24D65. / B4…3rd. of 9 fiches.

Page.147.

BAPTISMS ANNO DOMINI. :~ 1829.

Entry. No’ 1169.
May. 22nd.
Emily. Daughter of James & Emily NEALE.
A Tailor by trade.
Wheat Street.
Ralph Chillow. Curate.

Fiche No’ 24D65. / B6. .......4th. Of 7 fiches.
Page.193.

BAPTISMS ANNO DOMINI. :~ 1849.

20th. June..
Entry No’ 1540.
Annie. ( in Left hand margin. …. Born 1843. )
Daughter of James & Emily NEALE.
A Tailor by trade.

Entry. No’ 1541.
Charles. ( In left hand Margin Born 1845. )
Son of James & Emily NEALE.
A Tailor by trade.

Entry. No’ 1542.
Arthur. ( in Left hand margin. Born 1848.)
Son of James & Emily NEALE.
A Tailor by trade.

All the three above have the address of
Chatham Street,

Ralph Chillow. Curate

Re Trade Directories. :~

Looked at the Original Directories to find out where James & Emily
were in 1841. in the hope it would help…….

James did not appear in any of the Directories
Until 1846…..46, Granby Street.

Tailors :~
1840. 41,42,43 = John Neale. London Road.

1842.....= Richard Neale. Wharf Street.
William Neale. Commissioner of wool agent.
27, Albion Street ( round corner from Calais Street.)

1843......= William Neale. Calais Hill.

Trawled Census returns for an area around Calais Street last night .
But did not spot James or family.

So we have :~
1829. = Wheat Street.
1840. = Chatham Street.
1846. = Granby Street.
1849. = Chatham Street.

Cor… He got around a bit. !!!

Going on the above Directories just wonder. …….
If James did not go into business for himself until that 1846 entry
and before that he worked within the household of someone else ?
and so might not have been included in the Census returns.

I see that there was a Public House Named
“ The Tailors Arms” in Chatham Street. …….

MIKE.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for checking the parish records and confirming the details of George Henry Holland's entry.

Also many thanks for the gypsy site address you gave me recently. I checked this and although I didn't find Henry Holland or his son George Henry Holland, there was a Holland family I had seen on the 1881 census at Great Barr, Staffs and it may be worth me pursuing a bit of research on that.

As per my previous note, I'll let you know how I get on at the Stafford record office - in the meantime, must get back up those steps with the paintbrush!

Many thanks.

Ann
xx

Hello Mike

No luck with the price of shoes yet but found this about apprentices which might be of interest to others as well

http://www.berksfhs.org.uk/journal/Dec2002/ApprenticeshipDocuments.htm

The Statute of Artificers (1563) was an Act of Parliament which made it illegal to practise any craft without having served an apprenticeship of seven years, and it remained in force until 1814.

The 1765 indenture of Richard Smith of Whitchurch, Oxfordshire, to Catharine Warner of Pangbourne, barge builder, for instance, includes the promise that ‘The Goods of his said Mistriss he shall not waste, nor the same without Licence of her to any give or lend. Hurt to his said Mistriss he shall not do, cause or procure to be done; he shall neither buy nor sell without his Mistress’s Licence. Taverns, Inns, or Alehouses he shall not haunt. At Cards, Dice, Tables, or any other unlawful Game, he shall not play.’5 Indentures usually included these kinds of restrictions on the apprentice’s behaviour, although they were usually framed in rather less colourful language; another standard provision forbade the apprentice to marry. A child was usually placed at the age of 14 and would thus normally achieve legal adulthood at 21 about the time his apprenticeship ended

The vast majority of apprenticeships were privately arranged betweenthe child’s family and the prospective master. The master was indeed often a relative or friend of the child’s parents. The master was paid a cash premium by the child’s family, in return for which he or she undertook to train the child in the relevant profession and to maintain him or her during the apprenticeship. The amount paid varied, depending on the trade to be learnt. The apprentice was not normally paid any wage during his apprenticeship, receiving only bed and board. The vast majority of apprentices were boys, girls being more likely to work in the same households as servants — also given bed and board, but hired by the year and paid a wage.

There is also information about indentures being given to pauper children.

Will keep looking re wages and price of shoes!

Caroline xx

Hi Mike, I am impressed, yes that is the Census entry I found , but I thought it said Calais Street.
Address on birth Certiciate for Edwin in 1840 is Chatham Street, and on his Marriage Certiciate in 1859 it says The Barracks, as he was a Bombadier in the Royal Artillery. I found a James Neal Tailor in Granby Street in W. White's Directory for 1846.
So how many times was Emily christened then, very strange. I do appreciate your help. Hoping to get up to Leicester some time, but it is a long way from Hampshire.

Thanks Sue.

Greeting’s Sue…….

Is this the Family you are seeking information on ? :~

1851. Census returns HO 107 / 2088 / 100. / 25.
No. 18 Calais Street.

EMILY Neale Head Widow Aged. 45 F Brace Hand Lei Mkt.Harboro'
EMILY Neale Dau U Aged. 21 F Hosiery Mender Nott Nottingham
EDWIN Neale Son Aged. 11 M Errand Boy Lei Smgt
ANNE Neale Dau Aged. 8 F Lei Smgt
CHARLES Neale Son Aged. 5 M Scholar Lei Smgt
ARTHUR Neale Son Aged. 3 M Lei Smgt

St. Margaret’s Parish Baptisms :~

22-May 1829 Emily Neale James & Emily
20-Jun 1849 Annie Neale James & Emily
20-Jun 1849 Arthur Neale James & Emily
20-Jun 1849 Charles Neale James & Emily

Looks like something was happening around 1849
Why the multi Baptisms ?
And where’s Edwin ?
Is there an address on your Birth certificate for Edwin ?
This would help in pin pointing location for 1841 census returns

I’ve trawled the Burials for James within the Borough But NO luck….

MIKE.

Hi Mike,

Hope you can help me great grandfather Edwin Neal born 1840 (got the Certificate) his father James a Tailor and mother Emmily (Emily) cannot find them on 1841 census, think I found her and Edwin and siblings in 1851, so James probably died late 1840's.
Supposed to have had a Shop in Leicester so, have tried all the spellings I can think of, Neal,Neale,Neall,
Neele, Nail etc, But no luck so far. Edwin no problem but James seems very elusive.

Thanks Sue

nudge

Hi Mike,

Tks so much for your continued help....

Cheers
Karen

(¯`*•.¸ (¯`*•.¸F.A.O. KAREN O’ BRISBANE ¸.•*¨) ¸.•*¨)


Just to say I’m still looking for your marriage
either Loughborough of Melton Mowbray c 1788…….

MIKE.xx

(¯`*•.¸ (¯`*•.¸F.A.O. FRAZZLED …….¸.•*¨) ¸.•*¨)

Have you had any luck yet with :~ re price of shoes c 1760. ?

I’ve enlisted the help of the Records Office to see if they can come up with a price…….

But one idea they floated was may be that in the year 1760
Thomas would not be on a wage but on a commission ?
Has he was a servant then he would have Lodgings and Food taken out his pay packet ?

MIKE.xx

Greeting’s again. ……… Ann.

I’m not sure if you had time to do any searching the Records when you popped into see that exhibition

YES the Records Office did have Parish registers for Blackfordby.

So……. just to confirm Parish details :~

Fiche No. D E. 4207. / 1. 1 pf 4 fiches.

BAPTISMS ANNO DOMINI 1861.

Page. No. 20.
Entry No.157.
23rd. June. 1861.

George Henry.
Son of Henry & Sarah Holland.
Blackfordby ( Crossed out )
Ashby Wolds ( below the crossing out.)
Traveling Brazier.
R. Strony. Curate.

Entry No. 158 Same date.

Edwin ? ( not to clear )
Of Thomas & Bethie Smith ? ( again not too clear.)
Ashby Wolds
Traveling Brazier.
R. Strony. Curate.

NO other Holland events found for Five years either side of 1861.

Sorry…..

Good luck with Staffordshire Records Office.

MIKE. xx

Cut & Pasted from Part Sixteen :~
Pamela

Request review
Today 13th. August. at 22:32
Looking for Burdett, Mansfield, Chapman Rodwell and Holwell in Leicester.

Anyone out there looking for the same?
Pamela

MIKE.

Greeting’s again. ……. Ann.

Have done a bit of digging about & found this site
Which has the Census returns for Gypsies 1841 ~ 1901
I have not gone right through it but you might just strike lucky :~

http://www.geocities.com/seraphim_angel_2002/Gypsyindex.html

With reference to the Parish Community Chest
This is known better under the heading of
“ The Poor Law “
I know Leicester Records Office has this Disc But I too have a copy of it
I’m not sure if Staffordshire has one though.

Poor Law examples from the Disc :~


Holland Hannah 1832 Removal Order Ashby de la Zouch 432/2/214 Removed to
Derby All Saints
Holland James 1808 Removal Order Loughborough 1834/4/20
Removed to Melbourne Derbyshire
Holland Christian 1735 Removal Order Ashby de la Zouch 432/2/107
Removed to
Tamworth Staffordshire

I’m glad you managed to see the exhibition at the Records Office.
I found it very interesting but did you see last years Exhibition ?
This had examples of the handy crafts they did
From clothes pegs to tin tankards all made from scrap metal
Plus many more archives relating to their way of life.

MIKE. xx

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the further info and the details and opening times of the Stafford Record office. I live in Leics now so I'm going to gather my other Stafford queries and do as you suggest and visit Stafford in the next few weeks - will let you know how I get on.

Now about the Parish Community Chest which I hadn't heard of before - I presume records would kept of who was assisted and would they be held at the Records Office as well?

I was nearby in Wigston today so visited the On the Road travellers exhibition there - very interesting. I met a lady there who told me of the pattern of travel of her traveller ancestors, all interesting stuff and helps build the big picture. She told me about her family visiting the big houses for work and reminded me that I'd been told that great grandma (George Henry Holland's wife) used to visit the big houses to mend umbrellas and parasols. What I wasn't told as a child was that she may well have had sprigs of heather/pegs with her!

Thanks again for your time and trouble.

Ann
xx

Greeting’s again. ….. Ann.

Nice to see you return. ……

Your quote :~
Do you know whether travellers/ gipsies were likely to bother to register their children or not and would they usually get them baptised?

This depends on if they were trying to live to the traditions of the Travellers
Or trying to change their life style ?

If they were “ On the Road “ then I believe they had their favourite places to stop especially in the Winter months .
This is usually when they have their Children Baptised or they marry if they do not wish to follow the Travellers usual traditions of “ Jumping over the broom stick “

Also if they wish to claim on the Parish Community Chest
Or have been moved on by a “ Removal Order or a Settlement Order “
Then I would think that one of the conditions for this would be to be Baptised
And so become part of the Village.

I think if it was me I would try and get to the Records Office for Staffordshire
See link below :~
There you would be able to view the original Marriage Registers for St. Michaels
“ Brereton cum Smethwick “

Then have a look around the entries before & after to see if those witnesses appear again if they do then this would indicate that they were part of the Church may be Church Wardens or Parish Clark.
Or Professional Witnesses….Yes some made a living out of this.
This would save you time trying to following up those wit's .
via Census......

Also you can check if further children were Baptised there.


Staffordshire Record Office
Eastgate Street
Stafford
ST16 2LZ
By telephone:
(+44) 01785-278379
Archive enquiries
(+44) 01785-278373 Appointments
(+44) 01785-278380

Admin enquiries
By minicom: (+44) 01785-278376
By fax: (+44) 01785-278384

By email: [email protected]

Opening Hours

Monday,Tuesday & Thursday 9.00 am - 5.00 pm
Wednesday 9.00 am - 8.00 pm
Friday 9.30 am - 4.30 pm
Saturday 9.00 am - 4.00 pm

Advance notice of closure : Staffordshire Record Office will be closed for essential electrical works on Friday 15 August and Saturday 16 August. We apologise for any inconvenience that this might cause.

Let us know how you get on.

MIKE. xx

Hi Mike,

Didn't expect a reply so quickly! Many thanks for the info you have managed to send and I'll certainly try the website you suggest.

I've made some attempt to find a Sarah Holland but as yet have had no success with that either.

Yes, I do have a copy of the marriage certificate for Henry's son George Henry Holland and Caroline Johnson, married on 16/10/1882. This took place at St Michaels, Brereton, Staffs where both George and Caroline were residing at the time.

Both George and his father Henry are shown as 'cutlers' on the certificate. Later, In 1906 George's son (a George Henry Holland as well who married Jessie Nixon) is shown on his marriage certificate as a 'grinder'. In view of their lifestyle I think perhaps 'cutler' may have been a more upmarket name for 'knife grinder' or 'scissor grinder'.

George and Caroline both signed the 1882 marriage certificate with their 'mark' but the two witnesses signed with their names Thomas Wright and Martha Woods. I suppose one avenue could be to try and trace the witnesses and see what occupations they have and where they lived.

I did find a Henry Holland in the 1881 census at Great Barr, Staffordshire, who was a 'scissor grinder' b 1840/41, who I thought might be the one, although he was with a much younger wife by then if it was him. There were other 'Holland' travellers on the same site, but I could not link them to the family.

Do you know whether travellers/ gipsies were likely to bother to register their children or not and would they usually get them baptised?

Many thanks for your help.

Ann

Greeting’s again Frazzled …….

Yes I had worked that one out …….
In fact I thought that’s what “ Surrogate” was relating to
Hence the look at the original Bond………

Re my Bill ……

I’ve had to order another abacus as the one I have
has not got enough beads on it ..to work out the bill in today’s valve …lol

MIKE. xx

Thank you very much for the very interesting extra info Mike.

I guess they must have applied to marry by licence as Mary was pregnant at the time. They married 18/2/1760 and William baptised 2/7/1760.

Glad our Thomas didn't break the conditions of his bond, it looks an awful lot of money to pay. I have tried looking up how much Thomas would have been earning at the time but have not had much success.

Will your bill be at todays reckoning or the 1760's, think I'll need a payment plan!!!!

Caroline xx

Hi Mike,

Would you be good enough to look up a marriage between a Henry Harley and Ann Street in maybe All Saints Loughborough or Melton Mowray.. about 1788 or a bit before .
I think I mentioned these two previously and am not sure weather you were able to find anything.

Look forward to hearing from you...
Cheers
Karen of Brisbane

G’ Day Mate…… Karen O ‘ Brisbane.

St. Margaret’s and Welford Road are two separate burial grounds. .......

All the five central Churches within the Borough of Leicester
close their grave yards 1855. to new interments other than if the deceased was to be reunited with family members within the grave yards.

All interments took place at Welford Road Cemetery until 1960 ~70’s.

Gilroes Crematorium opened 1904. ( records held ONLY by our beloved Council )
BIG Bucks to get the information out of them now……gr….:0(((

I have Burial Index details for All the Five Central Parishes 1813. ~ 1891.
And the FULL transcriptions to Welford Road Cemetery burials 1849 ~ 1950.

Ask away……..

MIKE. xx ..Blows out my candle for today ....<3 II

Greeting’s & Welcome Ann.

First I’ll try and answer your questions you have posted…….

Location of Ashby Wolds…….

This area forms a inverted triangle with the point being Ashby De La Zouch
Going North through Moria to Swadlincote ( known to locals as Wooden Box )
Spreading to the East through ( BLACKFORDBY Correct spelling )
and as far as Smisby. and back to Ashby De La Zouch.
Geographically it’s were the rolling hills are,…… hence the wording Wolds.

Unfortunately Blackfordby presents problems regarding Family History research.
It sits on the borders of South Derbyshire & Leicestershire.
Therefore I’m certain that Leicestershire records Office will not hold any records of this Parish……I've tried before ...
The alternative Records Office would be Derbyshire Records Office in Matlock……
I can ask at Leicestershire Office to be absolutely sure and get back to you.

I did managed to find the Baptism for George Henry Holland in Blackfordby
via the I.G.I. Batch Numbers Site.

But it stated that the Mothers Christian name was SARAH.
And the date was 23rd.June 1861.

Also I could not find a Birth Index Ref. No. via
G.R.O & the Find my past Sites.

Plus no clues found viewing the Census images 1891 & 1901.

So if they were Travelers in the true sense of the word.
Then I doubt if any Records will be found.1841 ~ 1881
( sorry I’m not being disrespectful here. )
I’m sure they would have avoided the Census enumerator on Census Night !!!!

I assume you have got Georges Marriage certificate. ?
Dec Qrt. 1882.
George Henry Holland ~ Caroline Johnson.
Litchfield District.
Cert No. 6 b. 747.

This will give you the both Parents names & Occupations.
Which would be a great start.

Have you thought of contacting a Travelers Web Site ?

Romany and Traveller Family History Society

www.rtfhs.org.uk

There is a small membership fee to pay if you wish to join the Society.
( Same price as this site but for 12 months )

I trust I’ve answered your immediate inquiries ? …….

Please do not hesitate to ask for any more help.

MIKE. xx