Genealogy Chat

Ooh, I think I may have found somebody! I couldn't resist another look before going to bed.
I'll send you a PM.

Goodness, you have been busy - you're making excellent progress. What a sad story, though - Raymond and Evelyn managed to mess up quite a few lives between them by the sound of it. What a pity your sister felt she had to keep the story to herself all this time.

Anyway I'm off - I'm flying to England tomorrow, and I have to set off at 9 a.m. I should have been in bed hours ago :-)

Enjoy your holiday too.

Mary

HI MARY

HAVE A GREAT TIME
REGARDS PAULA

HI MARY

WE HAVE HAD A LOOK AT THE WHITE PAGES AND FOUND A COUPLE THAT COULD BE THE CHILDREN SO I HAVE WROTE THERE ADDRESS DOWN AND I THINK NEXT STEP IS TO WRITE TO THEM
WE HAVE ALSO FOUND THAT EVELYN WAS SECRETARY IN THE POLICE STATION IN DEWSBURY FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS BEFORE SHE RETIRED.
SO IM GOING DOWN IN MORNING TO SEE IF THEY CAN SHED ANY LIGHT ON THE MATTER.
IM GOING TO GET A COPY OF RAYMONDS DEATH CERT IF I CAN AS MY SISTER SAYS THE ONE SHE HAS IS ALL RIPED UP AND HARD TO READ.
AND IM GOING TOMORROW TO GET A COPY OF EVELYNS AND SEE IF I CANT ASK IF THEY HAVE MARRIAGES FOR THE KIDS
MY OTHER SISTER IS GOING TO GET BIRTH CERTS AS THEY WERE BORN IN LEEDS AND SHE LIVES NEAR THERE.
AND THEN I HAVE TO START WRITEING LETTERS TO AUSTRALIA
IM REALLY GLAD YOU JOINED IN I HAVE SOMEONE TO TELL ABOUT MY PART IN THE REASEARCH ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE DONE MOST OF IT .
ONE OF MY OTHER SISTERS SAY THAT WHEN THE MEN CAME TO TELL MY MUM THAT HE HAD DIED THEY FOUND OUT ABOUT MY MUM BECAUSE EVELYN HAD ASKED THEM TO LET RAYMONDS SISTER KNOW OF HIS DEATH AND WHEN TOLD THAT HIS WIFE IN AUSTRALIA HAD ASKED THEM TO COME SHE SAID WHAT DO YOU MEAN HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN WERE LEFT BEHIND AND TOLD THEM WERE MY MOTHER WAS LIVING AND THEY TOLD MY MUM THAT EVELYN HAD CLAIMED WIDOWS PENSION
AND MUM WENT MAD AND WENT DOWN TO SEE SOMEONE ABOUT IT AND SHE ENDED UP GETTING WIDOWS PENSION
I ASKED MY SISTER WHY SHE HAD KEPT THIS ALL TO HERSELF KNOWING I WAS LOOKING SHE SAID SHE THOUGHT I WOULD THINK BADLEY OF MY MUM .
I SAID WHY SHOULD I SHE DID NOTHING WRONG
I HOPE WE CAN FIND ONE OF THE KIDS AT LEAST FOR KEITH THAT WOULD BE GOOD
ANYWAY WHEN DO YOU GO AWAY I GO THURSDAY
WELL GOING TO BED WILL PROBABLY BE UP 5AM WITH 3 YR OLD GRANDAUGHTER AS SHE LIVES WITH ME AND ALWAYS WANTS SOMETHING TO EAT AROUND THEN .IT IS NOW 2.04 HERE AND IVE BEEN ON THIS COMPUTER SINCE 9AM THIS MORNING AND ALL DAY YESTERDAY

TALK VERY SOON MANY THANKS AGAIN
REGARDS PAULA

Unfortunately there are very few records for people coming back to England. There are a few on the National Archives site; I've already checked Rylah, and didn't find anything:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/searchthearchives/

There are two other things you could do.

One is to contact the NSW "Ask a librarian service" which Val mentioned right at the beginning of this thread, and ask for an electoral roll look-up. Don't know how recently they'll do that, because NSW has quite strict privacy laws.

The other thing is to try the phone book:

http://www.whitepages.com.au/wp/index.jsp

They only give Christian name initials, but there is a name that possibly matches one of the children, if she hasn't remarried. The online marriage index only goes up to 1957, so that's no help.

If you're still stuck, there's a thread on the Records Office Board by Katrina Wehipeihana called "Anyone need help in finding relatives in USA, Cana" - the end has been cut off, but the offer includes Australia.

Kerri and Cherilyn are also offering Australian look-ups on the Tips Board. Not sure if any of them will have access to recent information.

Finally, I believe Joan Allen is very experienced in tracing living people, but I don't know whether she does Australian research. Search for her name by clicking on Advanced Search on the left-hand side of this page, and you'll find a thread with her contact details.

OK, I'm off now till Sunday :-)

hi mary

couldyou do us a favour and find out how we look for people in australia as we can not find anything for pat john and pamela in england anything at all we think they could have stayed in australia either for a while after raymond died or perminant or is there a record of people coming back to england
if they died they could be in either rylah or richer .

many thanks
paula

Oh, that complicates things a bit :-)

I'n glad your sister had the death cert - that'll save you some time and money. Why didn't she want you to know?

If the three children who went to Australia weren't the children of Evelyn's first husband, it's odd that they were registered under his surname. Either they were his or she hadn't married their real father by the time they were born, otherwise they would have taken his surname. She was still using the name Richer in 1958 when the last child was born.

If you want to know who their fathers were, you can send off for their birth certificates.

Where did you get the information about Raymond and Evelyn marrying in 1960? If you remember, I checked for a marriage yesterday and didn't find one; I've checked 1960 again now, and there's no marriage in England and Wales in 1960 under either of their names. I suppose they could have gone up to Gretna Green; unfortunately, as far as I know, online Scottish marriages only go up to 1932.

However, I think it's most likely that they just lived together without marrying. She no doubt put herself down as the widow on his death cert for the sake of respectability (and maybe she would have been entitled to a widow's pension?).

HI MARY

OH MY GOD
THE PLOT THIKENS
WE HAVE NOW FOUND A COPY OF RAYMONDS DEATH CERT MY SISTER HAD IT AND DIDNT WANT US TO KNOW BUT SHE HAD TO GIVE IN AFTER ALL WE FOUND.
RAYMOND RYLAH MARRIED EVELYN IN 1960 WHILST STILL MARRIED TO MY MOTHER KEITH TELLS ME HE WAS THE ONLY SON OF ERNEST RICHES AND EVELYN THEN SHE MARRIED AGAIN BUT HE DONT KNOW WHO TO AND WE THINK THAT PAT AND JOHN WHERE THE SECOND MANS CHILDREN BUT THEN WHEN HE WAS 17 HE WENT TO SEE HIS MUM AND SHE TOLD HIM THAT HER HUSBAND HAD DIED AND SHE WAS TO REMARRY AND WAS GOING TO LIVE IN AUSTRALIA THAT WAS IN 1959 SHE MARRIED RAYMOND 1960 AND MOVED TO AUSI IN 1962 SO NOW I HAVE TO START LOOKING FOR THE CHILDREN.

REGARDS PAULA

Have you told Keith where to find this thread, so he can read all the details?

It might be worthwhile to look for details of Evelyn's first husband, as there may be living relatives of his who have more information. There are a few people on Genes who have his name in their tree, but you need to know roughly when and where he was born to see if he's the right one.

Hope you have a lovely holiday!

hi mary
keith said i can put his name he just as enthraled as us as he says tghis woman could be his mother and it is looking that way and if someone sees his name it might jog memories
im thinking of writing a book hahaha
and to think i knew nothing a few days ago now ive enough for a book .
i will let you know what happens and ive already had my free 14 day trial so have to pay but will sort that out
im going away my husband is taking me away for valentines so i wont be on line from thursday morning for a few days .
but if my sister has anything to do with it she will be here on my pc
she carrieing on cos im going away and not going to be hear to search

regards paula

Good heavens, this is turning into a fascinating saga!

Unfortunately I'm going to be away till Sunday and I probably won't have access to a computer.

You can search births, marriages and deaths up to about 1920 quite easily here:

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

but after that you'll need an Ancestry subscription. If you don't have one, you can get a 14-day free trial from www.ancestry.co.uk ; you have to give your credit card details, but they won't charge you provided that you cancel before the 14 days is up. If you forget to cancel, they take a year's subscription automatically.

When you've subscribed, go to this page:

http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx

and choose the Complete Index (*not* the Partial Index).

You can then search for marriages for Evelyn and Raymond, and look for births of any other children or marriages of the ones we know about.

Unfortunately it's a very slow process.

If you can pinpoint roughly where any of the family live, you can then try looking them up in the phone book:

http://www.192.com/search/people.cfm

By the way, you might replace Evelyn's son's name with initials, because he may not appreciate having his name made public.

Good luck!

Mary

HELLO MARY
SORRY HE SAYS HE IN CYPRUS NOW

HI MARY
I HAVE FOUND WE THINK A SON OF EVELYNS AND FIRST HUSBAND RICHES
I FOUND A MATCH FOR HER ON GENES LIKE YOU SAID AND SENT HIM A MESSAGE
I GOT A MESSAGE FROM HIM THIS MORNING AND HIS NAME IS KEITH HE SAYS HE WAS SEPARATED FROM HIS MOTHER WHEN HE WAS 6 AND HE THEN SAW HER WHEN HE WAS 17 AND SHE TOLD HIM SHE WAS TO REMARRY AND GOING TO AUSTRALIA WITH THE SAME THREE CHILDREN THAT YOU FOUND BUT HIS NAME IS RICHER HE SAYS HE DONT KNOW WHO HER HUSBAND WAS AND THAT SHE SAID HER HUSBAND HAD DIED AND SHE WAS TO REMARRY
DO YOU GET ALL THIS IVE BEEN AT IT ALL NIGHT ME AND MY SISTER ARE ENGROSED

IVE ASKED HIM TO LET ME KNOW IF HIS MOTHER WAS MARRIED AGAIN AFTER RICHER AND OR WHO WERE HER OTHER 3 CHILDRENS FATHER
RIGHT GOING TO GET DRESSED NOW GOT TO GO OUT FOR AN HOUR
TALK SOO REGARDS PAULA

You're very welcome - it didn't take all that long, and it's an interesting story.

I've kept a copy of what I deleted in case you've missed copying anything.

I think your next step is to get Raymond's death cert, which will give you the exact cause of death, and hopefully the names of all his children, and to contact the person with EN in his tree to see if he knows anything about them. She may still be alive, of course.

Report back if you find out any more - I shall be interested to hear how you get on.

hi mary

i just want to say a big thank you to you for all your help today you have done all the work and i am really great full if it hadent been for you i would be searching a lot longer as ive been looking for years and you found out most things in a day
thanks again paula

hi mary
i have done as you asked and have saved everything just in case do you want my email address
regards paula

We shouldn't really be posting the names of people who are very probably still living, so could you copy the posts where I've given the second "wife" and children's names and birth details to a file on your computer? When you've done that, let me know, and I'll delete them.

HI MARY
HEAD IS BATTED NOW

RIGHT NOW IM TRYING TO FIND OBIUARIES FOR DEATH OF RAYMOND AND EVELYN
THE INFO YOU HAVE IS GREAT I CANT BELIEVE IT

REGARDS

I've now checked from the beginning of 1958 to the first quarter of 1962, and there's no remarriage for ER (to Raymond or anyone else).

So I think the story goes like this.
[names of possibly living relatives deleted]

At some stage she met Raymond. Either her husband died or she left him, Raymond left his wife, and the two of them got together. When they emigrated in 1962 they weren't married, but she and the children travelled under his name.

They may have married in Australia, but the online marriages only go up to 1957 so we can't check that. However, they may never have divorced their respective spouses, and simply lived together.

If you enter the name of EN, born Leeds 1923, in the search box on this page, there's one person who has her in his tree. I should think he'd be worth contacting.