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Great stuff, Bette!

I'm so sorry that the person we were considering didn't turn out to be the one you're looking for.


I found the corresponding Mackie entry. If you look back at that page, you'll see there's a muddle.

The surnames are listed in this order:

MACKFALL
MCKISSON
MCKIE
MACKIE
MCKIE
MACKIE
MCKIE
MACKIE

and so on -- repeating the MCKIE/MACKIE alternation.

It seems the GRO doesn't distinguish between Mc and Mac, and lists them in order by given name.

He's under the third MACKIE -- just go through them by given name and you'll spot him easily:

John B.
18 0675


So it could be her -- only way to tell is to order the certificate. Seems unlikely, given the location and the late date, but you never know.

Bette i have foud the corresponding marriage for Moore / Mackie... the gentlemans name was John B Mackie

I have checked out the addresses that Kathryn B kindly found for me, but unfortunately they were not Edna.
I have now found and got 2nd Marriage Certificates for both my Grandma and Grandad and the details are as follows :-
Grandma`s:-
Edna Irene Webster( formally Burbidge ) married John William Moore
Date- 28th April 1937
He was 34 years of age / she was 24.
He was a Batchelor / she was formally the wife of Leonard Arthur Denzil Webster from whom she obtained a divorce.
His profession- Haulage contractor / hers- shoe tree-er
His residence at time of Marriage-34 Shaftesbury Avenue Leicester
Hers- 1? or 7? wingfield Street Leicester.
Fathers name and Surname- His-Herbert Thomas Clifton Moore.
Hers- Adolphus Burbidge
Profession of Father- His- Fruit merchant.
Hers- Cattle dealer.

Grandad`s:-
Leonard Arthur Denzil Webster married - Ivy Emma Carpenter
Date-13th May 1936
He was 27 years of age / she was 23.
Condition- He was the divorced Husband of Edna Irene Webster ( formally Burbidge spinster)
Hers- spinster
Profession- his- baker + confectioner ( journeyman)
Hers- blank
Residence at time of Marriage- both- 61 1/2? Regent Road Leicester.
Fathers name His-Alfred Webster
Hers- William Carpenter
Fathers profession-His-Retired Grocer
Hers-Railway linesman

Haven`t checked yet if there was any children from Grandma`s Marriage with John Moore.

I have checked all the Death records from 1930 - end 2007 in all 3 names ( Burbidge, Webster + Moore ) and found no matches.

I have checked to see if she re- Married in the name of Edna Irene Moore and the only entry was Oct/Nov/Dec 1978 to a Mackie, in Uckfield ( East Sussex, half way between Tunbridge Wells + Brighton ), Volume 18, page 0675.
I tried to find the corresponding page with Mackie married to Moore with same volume and page number and it doesn`t exist ? ( could it be that the Marriage did not go ahead ? ) so I am unsure as to whether it was her, so I have started to search the Deaths for Edna Irene Mackie from 1978, so far only up to Dec 1980, but wondering if it worth doing that when I am not sure even if it was our Edna ??
If this was her then she could be buried in Uckfield ??

My Sister has checked to see if John Moore died but couln`t find him so he could still be alive?

Might be worth ordering the Marriage Certificate as its the only entry found up to date to see if it was her ,any ideas ???

Thanks everyone for your help so far, Bette x

For electoral rolls, go here:

http://www.192.com/search/search.cfm

and search for

Edna Irene Moore
Leicestershire

(where I assume she is likely to be)

There is one result:

EDNA I MOORE
(address blacked out)
LEICESTERSHIRE

the address is blacked out in the results I get because I don't pay the huge subscription fee to get the info.

But oh my goodness -- I didn't notice that it gives a phone listing with an address. I'm going to PM it to you. Actually, it's just the address, but I'm going to see whether I can find the phone number.


... Phone number to match name and address got and PMed to Bette. Fingers crossed.

FreeBMD won't do you anything for that time period -- it isn't transcribed yet.

For births after 1911, you can only put surname (with given name of the child if you know it) + mother's surname -- not given names of parents. Parents' given names aren't recorded in the GRO with birth registrations.

Marriages you can definitely put given names in the search. Your problem, again, though, is that you're trying to search a period that isn't transcribed.

Only thing for it is the page-by-page visual search for births of children named Moore with a mother whose surname was Burbidge (or Webster, but it shouldn't be Webster) -- or wait a while for FreeBMD to catch up so you can search electronically. It should only be a few months, from what I've seen of the progress being made.

Hi there, I have now completed the Deaths searches for all 3 surnames-
Edna Irene Burbidge, Webster + Moore and have found no matches.
Any ideas on how to go about finding if she is alive ?
I tried the Electoral role but not too sure what I am doing, can anyone point me in the right direction ? thanks.
Also how do I go about finding if there were any children from that marriage to John W. Moore.
I know that Wayne above has checked up until 1940.
I had a go on freebmd but didn`t get on very well, it keeps saying that you can`t put the christian names in with Births and Marriages ??, and so ended up with 100`s of them, can someone advise ?
Thank you, Bette x

Hi Wayne
Thanks so much for that info, I have had a look and yes it does say that she was married to John W. Moore, ( rather than the Harry Moore as we had thought ), and registered in both names Burbidge + Webster in 1937 ( 2Q- 7a 627 ).
My Mums Birth Cert has got Leonard A,D, Webster on it, so he definitely was my Grandad.
Don`t know yet if there were any children by her marriage to Moore, thats something that I could check up on.
Thanks alot thats a real find,
cheers for that from Bette x

Edna I Webster married John W Moore, Leicester, 2Q 1937 7a 627

Interestingly her name on the record is stated as Webster or Burbidge?

Just checking the register for a dupe entry under the Burbidge name....

EDIT: and sure enough it's there, which would suggest she was already known by her maiden name again, but had to register bth names on this marriage?

EDIT 2: I have searched from 1937 to 1940 inc and can find no children so far of this marriage.

Bette,

I'm jumping into this one in the middle...have we found any possible marriages for your Grandmother or is the Moore name purely speculation?

If your Grandfather remarried in 1936 it is possible as others suggest that she didn't die and merely 'disappeared'... it is also possible that any subsequent marriage for her also produced children?

Do you have your mothers birth cert? and does it state your Grandfather on it, is it possible he wasn;t the natural father and therefore not inclined to carry on looking after the child once her Mother had gone?

Hello Janice,
I have just checked through the Marriage records for my Grandad- and found his 2nd Marriage in 1936 and I am going to order the certificate now, so hopefully I will find out if he was widowed or divorced,
Thanks for the advice, from Bette x

Hi Janice,
No I haven`t, but thats a good idea, I will try that
Thanks , Bette x

Hi have you tried to look for grandads 2 marriage as a cert might say if he was a wid.

Hi Kathryn, Mum`s Half Brother who died last year was Douglas Webster, Donald is alive and well, both in Ilkley in Yorkshire.
We do keep in touch with Donald and Douglas` wife Pauline.
Thanks for taking the time to help me out x

Hi there,
I have been checking through the Death records and so far have checked through Edna Irene WEBSTER from 1930 to 2007 and found nothing.
I have checked through the Death records for Edna Irene MOORE ( incase she remarried to Harry Moore ) so far from 1930 up until 1965 and found nothing. My Sister Anita is taking over from 1965 up to today.
I am now checking Edna Irene BURBIDGE incase she went back to her maiden name and so far have checked from 1930 up to 1977 and will continue up to today. I haven`t found any matches so far.
Keep you posted from Bette x

Hi again Bette -- well, the closest match in the death records is still the one I posted above:

Edna Webster
29 Aug 1912
Feb 2001
88
Mansfield Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire

It's very close, but a week out. Depending on who reported the death and what the date of birth was taken from, that person might still be a possibility. Amazingly, there have been 10 other Ednas born on 22 Aug 1912 who have died since 1984, but only one who doesn't have other given names that don't match your grandmother's:

Edna Eyre
22 Aug 1912
Mar 2005
92
Sheffield Yorkshire

No other Websters or Moores with that birthdate.

I'm not sure whether you're in touch with Donald or his family or not. In case I didn't mention, there's no record of a death of a Donald Webster born 1934 in the death records after 1984. A Donald Henry Carpenter born 21 Dec 1934 died in Greenwich in 1989, but that isn't a great match (wrong middle name, even if he went by Carpenter).

Hi there, I now have the Birth Certificate for my Grandma- Edna Irene Burbidge ( later Webster ).
She was born on the 22nd August 1912 at number 20 Melrose Street, Leicester, Leicestershire.
Name and surname of Father- Adolphus Burbidge.
Name and surname of Mother-Martha Ann Burbidge ( formally Rylett ).
Occupation of Father- Butcher ( Master ).
Signature, Description and residence of informant- M.A.Burbidge, Mother, 20 Melrose Street, Leicester.
When registered- 23rd September 1912.
Regarding the above ideas for Donalds birth records, I don`t know as yet his Mothers maiden name but will post it here when I find out.
Thanks for all your help, its most appreciated, Bette Taylor x

You have a puzzle.

Your grandparents were married on April 26th 1930.

Your mum was born on November 8th 1930.

Known facts so far!

What isn't known is:

Did your grandmother die in the 1930-1935 period sometime, or did your grandparents simply separate?

Your grandfather had a child with a new partner on August 31st 1934.

What isn't known is:

Was your grandfather married to that partner?

Your mum wasn't yet 4 years old in August 1934. Was she relinquished for adoption before her father remarried / had a child with a new partner? That child would have been conceived in late 1933, when your mum was just barely 3 years old. Was her father already remarried when that child was conceived, i.e. her mother had died before the end of 1933?

But okay, I see now -- your mum was *adopted* when she was 4, but had been cared for by family for a period before that. That's different.

If her mother hadn't died, would her parents have been able to get a divorce rather speedily at that time? Seems unlikely.


Is this the birth of Donald?

Jul-Aug-Sep 1934
WEBSTER Donald C.
mother's surname: Hawthornthwaite
district: Biggleswade
vol: 3b
page: 393

Where the heck is Biggleswade? ... Bedfordshire. Seems unlikely, maybe.

Aha, we have an addition at the bottom of the page; same quarter:

WEBSTER, Donald L.
Mother's surname: Carpenter
district: Warwick
vol: 9c
page: see D.60?

And my suspicion is: a double registration, also in the mother's surname, because the parents weren't married.

No Donald Carpenter ... but: page D.60? Lemme see ... I don't know what that means! Who knows what that means?

Well, someone tried to explain it here:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/FreeBMD-Admins/1999-08/0934984304

Aha, D=December quarter. Of 1960??

Hardly seems to make sense -- but there it is. That Donald's birth was registered for the first time in 1960:

Oct-Nov-Dec 1960
WEBSTER, Donald L.
mother's surname: Carpenter
district: Warwick
vol: 9c
page: 1968

It was then back-dated by adding it to the index for 1934.

If this is your Donald, it suggests that maybe his birth wasn't registered because his parents weren't married. That Donald was apparently 26 years old when his birth was first registered.

I'm suspecting that he is your Donald, and that your grandfather Leonard Webster really was not married in 1934, and that your grandmother really had not died by 1934.

Otherwise, what would this story about her having possibly married a Harry Moore be all about??

Sad as it is, I suspect your mum was told her mother had died to spare her feelings, when her mother may really have abandoned the family (for reasons that might not be ours to judge, of course). There would presumably have been a divorce at some point, with both spouses possibly remarrying.

Hi Kathryn, thanks for the tip, you CAN tell that I am new to this can`t you ? I`m sorry if I have caused any inconvenience to you or anyone else.
I think the following is all that we know up to date.
My Mum was looked after by various family members until she was legally adopted by William and Harriett Whitworth at the age of 4 in 1934.
Her Dad must have re-married around 1933/1934 as one of Mum`s half Brothers ( Donald ) was born on August 31st 1934.
I have just asked Mum when her Dad died and it was 1st December 1968 and he is buried in Ilkley Yorkshire.
Hope this clarify`s things, thanks for you help and advice, Bette Taylor x

Here's a tip for the newbie then -- start out by telling everything you know and everything you've searched -- don't dole it out in dribs and drabs after other people have already gone looking for it!!!

On the last drab you've doled, I note the great similarity of name and place in this death record, despite the apparent discrepancy in birthdate:


Name: Edna Irene M Moore
Birth Date: 17 Dec 1911
Death Registration Month/Year: Apr 2000
Age at death (estimated): 88
Registration district: Leicester
Inferred County: Leicestershire
Register number: D1H
Entry Number: 88


That said, there are a lotta Edna Irenes, and a lotta Edna Moores.

But if what really happened was that Edna left home and she and Mr. Webster subsequently divorced, it could be that someone has been prettifying the truth along the way.

Hi Kathryn, so far I have checked the death records from 1930 when my Mum was born,up to as far as 1965 in Webster and also in `Moore` as its possible that she also re married to a Harry Moore, but again thats not for certain.I haven`t found a match in either name as yet, but then being new to this its possible that I could have missed something.
Thanks alot, Bette x