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thomas h roberts married in 1897last quarter west derby.can anyone tell me who to please.thanks.

Uh, I don't think so. At least, I can't find any Thomas Roberts marriage, last quarter, West Derby. Where did you get the info?

And if it was FreeBMD or Ancestry, couldn't you give us the options, Vivienne?? Who were the brides on the same page? I went looking to see for myself, but as I say, I dno't see any such marriage.

It might be a fairly simple thing then to find them in the 1901 census, as long as we have the wife's name to look for.


................. I don't suppose you meant 1879, not 1897, did you?


Marriages Dec 1879
FOULKES Ann Jane W Derby 8b 907
FRAZER James W. Derby 8b 907
Roberts Thomas West Derby 8b 907
Wilson Jemima W. Derby 8b 907

By the way, nobody will be able to tell you whom he married, if there are the usual four names on the page. It has to be done by looking in subsequent censuses, by elimination.

So for doing that, we'll need a little more info about Thomas, to know whom we're looking for. Date and place of birth would be useful!

His wife died in march 1899 in childbirth with elizabeth ethel roberts 16 03 1899 who died 1986 .i know i have the right father just cant get the the mothers surname but i believe she was elizabeth ?born ireland and i was on findmypast or genealogy for the marriage and there was 2 options of thomas roberts .elizabeth ethel their daughter was only child

thomas roberts was a joiner born liverpool 1854 brother of annie mcdougall nee roberts i have ruled out all his brothers as the father of elizabeth ethel my other halfs grandma. thomas.s father was evan roberts b caerarvonshire 1821

If you ordered the Birth cert it should give you the parents names

Name: Elizabeth Ethel Roberts
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 507

Sue

thanks sue but if you look further there is also an elizabeth ethel roberts also reg same time in conway so was she reg in 2 diff places ..did they do that to cover tracks.viv

Sue's plan is the only sound one. But I'm still pretty sure there was no Thomas Roberts marriage in West Derby in Q4 1897 ...


Elizabeth in 1901:


Name: Elizabeth Roberts
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Seaforth
Ecclesiastical parish: Seaforth St Thomas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Crosby
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 50

Elizabeth Roberts 1
Evan Roberts 53
John H Roberts 13
Lilian Roberts 11
Margaret Roberts 50
Margaret T Roberts 18
Mary E Roberts 25
William O Roberts 21


I see what you mean by ruling out other fathers, I think. But it seems that you will have a hypothesis only, and the birth cert is the only thing that will tell you. Then you can look for her parents' marriage.

The EER registered in Conway was later:

Name: Ethel Elizabeth Roberts
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Conway (To 1937)
County: Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 476


Yours was registered 2nd quarter, and you say she was born in March. There's no real reason to think that this is the same person. Why would yours have been registered in Wales? In 1901 there are a dozen Elizabeth Roberts in that vicinity, born 1900, any of whom could be that other EER.

The one who fits yours perfectly, assuming your birth place and date info are accurate from family knowledge, is the one in Sue's post. Cheap enough way to get the answer!

sorry but no she was with aunt annie/uncle edward mcdougall 1901 liverpool .thank you kathryn but will have to sleep on this one in a cold and frosty wales .nite.

Oops! I saw that Evan Roberts in the household I copied, and failed to notice he was too young to be your Evan Roberts. ;)

There's still no point in sleeping on it until you have a birth cert under your pillow!

Might one ask too whether you have got your Elizabeth Ethel Roberts's marriage certificate? Please say she married! That's how you'll know whether the birth cert is for the right person -- if the fathers' names match.

Frosty, pft. You soft people don't know what winter is ...

last post to all you good people . her fathers family came from conway so thats confusing me also she changed her first names around ,,i know they liked to do that to confuse us!!!

ok kathryn last last post yes she married frederick mather b1896newcastle upon tyne lancashire in west derby 1stq.1924 not soft just dont like jack frost.

Yes but Vivienne -- do you have the *certificate* of her marriage, showing her father's name??

All this guessing and puzzling out -- her father's name should be right there on the certificate!

1871 Census,
Thomas H Roberts was living with his parents at 43 Vickers Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Occupation, Joiner. His father Evan was born in Carmarthenshire, Wales.

1881 Census
Thomas H Roberts was living with his wife Elizabeth at 22 Dalkeith Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Occupation, Joiner. Elizabeth was born in Denbighshire, Wales c1855.

LancashireBMD
1880. Thomas H Roberts married Elizabeth ROBERTS at St Michael's, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Ref: 2068TP/13/71

Hope this helps, or does it just muddy the water?

Muddies the waters. Aren't you trying to find out for sure who the parents of Elizabeth Ethel Roberts born 1897 were?

If you're only *guessing* that it was Thomas H Roberts born sometime before 1871, how does this help?

And Vivienne, you started out by saying that Thomas H Roberts got married in ***1897***. Now you say he was living with his wife Elizabeth in 1881.

And you said his wife Elizabeth (whom he supposedly married in 1897?) may have been from Ireland, and now you say she was born in Denbighshire.

I, for one, am now completely lost.

And I still have no idea why you think he's the father of Elizabeth Ethel Roberts!

The 1871 household, just for ref:

John Morris 21
Margaret Morris 27
Owen Paul 22
Anne Roberts 10
Daniel Roberts 15
Ellen Roberts 48
Evan Roberts 50
Evan Roberts 8
John Roberts 13
Mary E Roberts 20
Thomas H Roberts 17
William Roberts 5


Here's your 1880 marriage, from FreeBMD, which seems to have more detail:


Marriages Sep 1880
Roberts Elizabeth W. Derby 8b 679
Roberts Thomas Humphrey W. Derby 8b 679


But how do you know, for instance, that he wasn't Thomas Hughes Roberts, who might have married this Elizabeth?


Marriages Dec 1874
BRADSHAW Elizabeth Helen W.Derby 8b 601
Cook John W. Derby 8b 601
LEWIS Mary Jane W. Derby 8b 601
Roberts Thomas Hughes W. Derby 8b 601


Okay, Elizabeth Roberts is more likely to be from Wales than Elizabeth Bradshaw, but still -- do you have the 1880 marriage certificate? How can you know that it was the son of Evan who married in 1880 without it?

And what does this 1897 marriage you started with have to do with anything???


There's no Thomas Humphrey Roberts born around 1854, around Liverpool. Sure, he could have been registered as just Thomas Roberts ...


Fixing to start tearing hair out, I'm afraid!

The 1901 household, again for ref (as transcribed by Ancestry):


Name: Elizabeth Roberts
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Seaforth, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Seaforth
Ecclesiastical parish: Seaforth St Thomas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Crosby
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 272

Amy McDougald 15
Annie McDougald 39
Annie McDougald 9
Edith McDougald 3
Edward McDougald 41
Edward McDougald 7
Elizabeth Roberts 2

Kathryn B

That was feralcat that posted that info.lol.

Sue

aaaaaaargh.

Yes, it did look a little too neat and tidy to be Vivienne's handiwork. ;)

I wave at Vivienne from where I lie fitfully sleeping as she sups her morning caffeine.

And I curse feralcat!!!!

Was this the Edward B McDougall who married Annie Roberts in St George's, Everton (that's in Liverpool) in 1884?

Thomas H. had a sister Ann around the same age.

Just a thought, not a guess, though. :-)

From the 'cursed' feralcat. lol