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Reuben was my mother's mother's mother's father. And for your weekend entertainment: who/where the heck did come from, and where was he in 1841?

This is not entirely a serious request for help, since I've done as much as I seem to be able to do, to find him, and I'd be surprised -- but hugely grateful -- if anyone else could! I'm really just posting the details to get them on record on the "Trying to Find Cooper" list, where they may be seen by related Coopers some day.

Reuben first appears in 1851:

Name: Ruben Cooper
[Reuben Cooper]
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England

Name: Mary Cooper
[Mary Ann Fallowell]
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Ruben
Where born: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Calverton
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Basford

Mary Cooper 24
Mary Ann Cooper 11 NOT
Ruben Cooper 25
Sarah Cooper 3
William Cooper 4 NOT

In fact, Mary Ann (Jr.) and William were twins, and were 4 months old (as the image actually says); births in GRO Q4 1950 Basford reg dist.

So they appear to be children of Reuben. This would be a question, because:

Name: Reuben Cooper + Mary Ann Fallowell
Year of Registration: **1872**
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Basford
County: Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 242

They married in 1872. One assumes that there was a pre-existing marriage on one side or the other, or both.

The marriage cert identifies Reuben as Bachelor, aged 48, and Mary Ann as Spinster, aged 45. But there is no conceivable reason why they would have married *after* all their children were born, other than that one of them had been married to someone else.

That previous marriage was *not* the marriage of Mary Ann Fallowell and Edwin Clarke.
I investigated them thoroughly.

Also, Reuben Cooper is *not* the Reuben in Derbyshire in 1841.
That one had a long and happy life with a wife of his own, Sarah I believe.


My gr-grmother was the couple's last child, Alice Cooper, Q3 1864 Basford.

This is Mary Ann in the 1841:

Name: Mary Fallwell
[Mary Fallowell]
[Mary Anne Fallowell]
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Mansfield Woodhouse
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Mansfield


I've sorted out a lot about the Fallowells. It's the Cooper who's the problem.


Continuing in another post ...

Reuben Cooper's father, per the 1872 marriage certificate, was:

Robert Cooper
Frame Work Knitter
(no indication that he was deceased, but that's no guide)

In 1861, on the same page as the Reuben & Mary Ann Cooper household (they have a son named Robert), there is the person who appears to be Reuben's mother:

Name: Sarah Cooper
[Sarah Smith]
Age: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1798
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England

Emma Cooper 24
Sarah Cooper 63


Here she is in the 1851 (the names in square brackets are all from my alternate-name entries at Ancestry):

Name: Sarah Cooper
[Sarah Smith]
Age: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1800
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England

Alice Cooper 18
Emer Cooper 14 (Emma)
Sarah Cooper 51


Now we get to the helpful submitters of info to the IGI:

Alice Cooper
Christening: 06 APR 1834 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Father: Robert Cooper
Mother: Sarah Smith

No batch number, even of the unofficial kind.

But in batch 7207530, we do have:

1. THOS COOPER
Gender: Male Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Calverton, Nottingham, England
2. HANNAH COOPER
Gender: Female Christening: 06 SEP 1829 Calverton, Nottingham, England
3. EMMA COOPER
Gender: Female Christening: 09 OCT 1836 Calverton, Nottingham, England

-- children of Robert and Sarah. Plus Alice, no mother shown.

No Reuben. But since they're not extracted records, whoever was doing the copying may have just ignored him. I need to take a trip back to Nottinghamshire. (My mum and I visited in 1994, long before on-line genealogy, and before I knew of Reuben and Mary Ann.)

Reuben would apparently have been older than those others. Maybe the person who copied just didn't go back to him. There are 1813 and 1819 births in that batch, though. There are no Reubens of any surname in the batch.

ROBERT COOPER
Spouse: SARAH SMITH
Marriage: 05 MAY 1823 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Batch Number: 7207530

The same submitted batch. No submitter name, btw. But I guess I can get it from the LDS ... so why am I bothering people here? ...


I guess because I just want to find the blasted Reuben in 1841.


That would have been too early for him to have married a first time, but it might give me an idea of where to look for such a marriage. I'm curious, of course, as to whether Reuben had children before hooking up with Mary Ann. I guess I should look for fatherless Cooper children in the vicinity ... whose mother would probably have hooked up with someone else and been calling her children by his name anyhow, of course.

If either of them did have a previous marriage, it couldn't have been before 1837, so there's that, anyhow.

The Coopers did follow the first commandment for ancestors strictly: all Coopers in that area of Nottinghamshire were required to be named William, Samuel, Hannah or Sarah, as a general rule.

Mary Ann Fallowell Cooper was called Farrowell on Alice's birth cert, but I've followed that up, too.


Oh yes -- can't find mother Sarah Smith Cooper in the 1841, either. Her daughters seem to be living close by their Smith grandparents:

Alice Cooper 9
Emma Cooper 5
Mary Cooper 10
Harriet Smith 19
(Harried being wrongly attached to the preceding household by Ancestry)

Elizabeth Smith 72
Elizabeth Smith 35
James Smith 72
James Smith 20
Jane Smith 6
John Smith 2
Martha Smith 9
(on same page as Cooper girls; James and Elizabeth are Sarah's parents, per IGI)

but the only Sarah who resembles mine is in the workhouse in Radford, probably not too likely. (And yes, I've looked for every Sarah no-name, Robert no-name, Reuben various spellings no-name, and no-name Cooper, and various possible mistranscriptions like Corper, and using wild cards ... in the surrounding universe.)

So ... where's Reuben ...

This is an entertaining aside to the Reuben Cooper tale.

Last spring, an older cousin of mine found me via notes I'd made to the Cooper household in a late census. A family history project at the local library in Worksop had been helping her trace her roots -- she's the granddaughter of my gr-grmother Alice's brother.

She has sent me photos of Reuben's and Mary Ann's graves, which she found from the info I had discovered. I haven't sent her anything ... (Edit, actually it was the grave of her son of Reuben and Mary Ann, drat - no such luck as a gravestone with Reuben's birth year on it ...)

A few months later, I was playing at the Devon Family History Society discussion board, and helping someone who wanted to identify the husband in her great-aunt's WWI wedding photo, who was killed at the front shortly after. The marriage wasn't yet transcribed, but I found the image with the entry and the husband's surname, and then found his entry, so she had a name. Then I found some background on him from the censuses.

Then I checked at GR and found four people with him in their trees! So I contacted them to pass on her email address, because she wanted to offer copies of the photo. It turned out that one of the people here was a granddaughter of the man in question -- he had had a son in Worksop before marrying in Plymouth. She lives in Worksop now.

That woman, learning that I was in Canada, mentioned her cousin in Vancouver. I've never been west of Calgary. ;)

But I told how I have family connections to Worksop. The Cooper who was my newfound cousin's grandfather owned the Gas Tavern there. (In 1994 it was the Canal Pub; my mum and I found it and added some family history to the guestbook, and sent the landlord and landlady a photo of a group of officers outside the pub sometime during WWI.)

She wrote back:

"I cant believe what you have just said about Cooper family
My friend A*** Cooper P*** I think has been in touch with you
she has told me about you and about Calverton"


Now if that ain't two degrees of separation. ;)

good tale, good read I think the martians have Reuben like they have my family of Bolgers in 1901.
probably lost returns
Glen

Ha! I figure he was probably over in Cornwall calling himself Francis Monck and being the non-existent fake father of my Ernest Augustus Hill!

I've taken a bit of a stab at your Bolgers ...

Hi Kathryn B
So you are still hunting for your Reuben then.... As you were so kind in helping me out with my Coopers (you came up trumps with them) I live about 50 mile south of Nottingham. (Wolverhampton) As I now find that you live in Canada, Can I be of any help in your local research (Nottingham area) I would be glad to help you out if I can. For the record, my grandparents on the Cooper side emigrated to Canada around 1910. But due to the cold weather there and John Thomas Cooper's Bronchitis, they had to return back to England. They were booked to return home in April 1912 on the "Titanic" If I can be of any help, please feel free to contact me.
Regards Graham Morris
[email protected]

Thank you kindly, Graham! I shall think on that.

1910 was a big year for immigrating; my grandparents who came here as children (one's mother was Cooper) arrived just before that. Do you have your people's records from the 1911 census? If not, gimme names and DOBs, and where they were if you know, and I'll pass it on.

Speaking of cold weather ... we are waiting for the storm as I type. It should be here momentarily ...

Hi Kathryn B
My grandparents, went to Montreal about 1910.
John Thomas Cooper b 6 October 1891
Elizabeth May Cooper nee Reynolds b 19 March 1890/91
Daughter Doris Cooper b about 1911 Montreal. They returned back to the UK about 1912 I have not got access to the Canadian records via Ancestory.com. So I have no records for them when they were tother side of the pond.
Regards
Graham

Well, it was nice of me to offer -- but I can't find them anywhere. Interestingly, I have also never found my great-aunt Lilian Cooper (Auntie Dud) in the 1911 census, either.

The census pages themselves are atrocities; barely legible in most places to start with, and very poorly scanned, and then abysmally transcribed. Far worse in all respects than the English censuses.

So they could have turned up as anything. But I tried John born 1888-1892 in England married to Elizabeth, any Coo* born 1888-1892 in England, Doris born 1910-1911 in Quebec with parents John and Elizabeth, John born 1888-1892 in England immigrated 1910, etc. No dice.

You can actually try yourself -- you can search the 1911 census at ancestry.ca (or just from .co.uk or .com, makes no difference), you just can't see the details. For instance, it won't show the spouse's or parent's name or place of birth in the results list unless you guess it right, and you can't look at the individual records. But you can take a shot at variations of names and so on, and if you come up with anything I can check the details.

As for Doris's birth in Quebec ... Quebec vital stats are a matter of some mystery to me. But I'm pretty sure she'd fall within the limits of privacy protection at present, usually something like 100 years for births.

Sorry about that!

Hi Kathryn B
Thank you for checking up for me. I will have a look at the records myself over the Christmas period when I am back at home. Have yourself a nice and happy Christmas.
Regards
Graham

Okay, Derek, you say this:

http://www.genesreunited.com.au/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1163029&px=1


Jameycanuck..ok here we go.........Robert Cooper born Calverton 1796 son of john Cooper 1749-1809 and Elizabeth Parr b 1748

married SARAH SMITH 05.05.1823 ..she ended up in Radford Workhouse i9n 1841 and eventually died at Calverton..date unknown.

In the meantime Robert re married to Mary Ann Fallows and had six kids with her.......

------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you know she ended up in Radford workhouse??

1841

Name: Sarah Cooper
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Civil parish: Radford
Hundred: Broxtow (South Division)
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
> not born in county
occupation: tambours
(http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/t.html
tambour worker -- Worked with embroidery on a (circular) Tambour Frame)

That is indeed the only candidate I had for her in 1841, as you see from this thread now - but where did that info come from?

It seems a little screwy, because it's putative son Reuben who married Mary Ann Fallowell.

Marriages Sep 1872
Cooper Reuben Basford 7b 242
FALLOWELL Mary Ann Basford 7b 242

and they reported ages 48 and 45 ...

Okay, here we have an Ancestry tree

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/3004314/person/-1564172286?ssrc=

showing Reuben as son of Robert and Sarah and married to Mary Ann Fallows (??). In the list of their children, it omits the two eldest, and for some reason includes my Auntie Dud as "Lilian daughter of Alice Cooper" in the list of children of Reuben and Mary Ann.


Oh ... I see ... that's my cousin in Worksop, messing things up. She's omitted her own ancestor William son of Reuben and Mary Ann! Okay, so much for that one. ;) She has decided to believe the info about Robert Cooper + Sarah Smith, even though there's no evidence. I think everything in that tree is what I gave her from the IGI.


Another tree at Ancestry has Robert 1796's father as Thomas ...


Here's a good one:

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/10359576/person/-619718264

Robert Cooper 1796 as son of John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr ...

Birth
Calverton, Prince George's, Maryland, USA


Why are people such idiots??? Oh, hey, it gets better; same tree for John Cooper 1749:

Birth
Placé, Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, France


I guess if you type "place", that's what the great big integrated tree of the entire universe suggests for you -- and you just say "yup!"

Groan and sigh.

I'm baaaack! Just before my government work sources went berserk with work in early December (the last huzzah before Parliament recesses for the holidays) and I became so unslept and unbathed for the next month trying to keep up that you wouldn't have wanted to be near me ... I had another poke at my Smiths and Coopers.

Tell me what you think, friends and other-countrypeople.


In short, Reuben Cooper stated on his marriage certificate to Mary Ann Fallowell in 1872 that his age was 48 and his father was Robert Cooper, frame work knitter. His mother seems to be the Sarah Cooper living in his vicinity in the mid-1800s censuses.

There are submitted records in the IGI showing the marriage of Sarah Smith and Robert Cooper and there are both submitted and extracted records for some children. A fellow descendant of Reuben Cooper and Mary Ann Fallowell has swallowed all of the unverified records holus bolus and put some very messy trees here and at Ancestry. We are going to ignore them.


1841

Name: Robert Cooper
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
>>> Occupation FWK = frame work knitter

Civil parish: Calverton
Registration district: Basford
County/Island: Nottinghamshire

Robert Cooper 40
Elizabeth Cooper 36
William Cooper 11
Sarah Cooper 7
Joseph Cooper 4

and in 1851

Robert Cooper 51
Elizabeth Cooper 41
William Cooper 21
Sarah Cooper 17
Joseph Cooper 24 - ? married and it looks like 24
(so unfortunately no children after 1837)


Not that the world and its dog weren't frame work knitters.

This Robert Cooper is a little old not to have older children in the household. The children are born c1830 and later.

Submitted records in the IGI for children of Robert Cooper and Elizabeth - info all obviously taken from the 1841 census:

Sarah Cooper - Birth: 1834 Calverton, Nottingham, England
Joseph Cooper - Birth: 1827 Calverton, Nottingham, England
William Cooper - Birth: 1830 Calverton, Nottingham, England


My Robert Cooper seems to have had children during the 1820s with Sarah Smith - both parents are named in full in these records, all submitted but the one:

Thomas Cooper - Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Calverton, Nottingham
Hannah Cooper - Christening: 06 SEP 1829 Calverton, Nottingham
ANN COOPER - Christening: 27 DEC 1831 Wesleyan Methodist, Calverton, Nottingham
( **extracted** C077481 - also submitted, as 29 dec 1831)
Alice Cooper - Christening: 06 APR 1834 Calverton, Nottingham
Emma Cooper - Gender: Female Christening: 09 OCT 1836 Calverton, Nottingham

- oops, three post-1830 ...

Five in total. Emma and Alice are together in 1841 and with Sarah in 1851.


Most submitted more than once. I hate that Mormons are baptising my ancestors.


Did Robert Cooper desert Sarah Smith (Cooper?) before 1841, and so is that her in the workhouse in Basford, her children with her parents James and Elizabeth Smith in 1841?


The odd bit

REUBEN SMITH - James Smith and Elizabeth, *extracted*
Gender: Male Christening: 24 DEC 1826 Basford, Nottingham, England

There are submitted records for Sarah daughter of James and Elizabeth Smith christened in Calverton variously 14 jan 1799, 14 jan 1800, abt 1796, 16 jan 1800 and 16 feb 1800 (some showing a marriage to Robert Cooper). I hate Mormons.


There is no marriage of a Robert Cooper to an Elizabeth in the IGI.
And no verified Robert Cooper + Elizabeth births in Calverton.


I think the 1841 Robert Cooper with Elizabeth and kids is my man. Anybody feel like second-guessing me? ;)

DEREK!! -- down here!!!

This is where I've sent you in my PM.


This is what I'm wondering about, that you said up above:


"ok here we go.........Robert Cooper born Calverton 1796 son of john Cooper 1749-1809 and Elizabeth Parr b 1748

married SARAH SMITH 05.05.1823 ..she ended up in Radford Workhouse i9n 1841 and eventually died at Calverton..date unknown."


What I'm wondering is where that's all from?

I think it's from submitted IGI records and/or my distant cousin's messed-up unsourced family tree.

Is there anything official (real parish record) about that 1823 Smith-Cooper marriage??

Have you looked at this one JC

1841 census - household transcription
Person: COOPER, Rueben
Address: Scarcliff, Scarcliff

JACKSON, John M 40 1801 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, Mary F 40 1801 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, John M 13 1828 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, George M 10 1831 Derbyshire VIEW
JACKSON, William M 14 1827 Derbyshire VIEW
SALES, John M 20 1821 Derbyshire VIEW
YATES, George M 15 1826 Derbyshire VIEW
COOPER, Rueben M 15 1826 VIEW
JOHNSON, Mary F 20 1821

Oh, I can see this thread is going to go the way of Ernest Hill/Monck. ;) (As long as AuntySherlock doesn't see it, I may be safe!)


Up there in opening post:

"Also, Reuben Cooper is *not* the Reuben in Derbyshire in 1841.
That one had a long and happy life with a wife of his own, Sarah I believe."


Yes, I liked the looks of him for a bit, but he eluded me. ;)

This is him in 1851 I believe:

Name: Reuben Cooper
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sarah
Where born: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil parish: Morton
County/Island: Derbyshire

The one in 1841 shows as Derbyshire, but the reg dist is Mansfield.


20 Aug 2010 - editing rather than adding, to avoid nudging the thread.

From the new familysearch

Name: Ann Cooper
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Dec 1831
Baptism/Christening Place: WESLEYAN METHODIST, CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Birth Date: 24 Nov 1831
Father's Name: Robert Cooper
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973


Inclusion of mother's surname suggests parents not married?

That is the only baptism in Calverton 1810-1840 for father Robert Cooper.


Name: John Smith Or Hopkinson
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 1816
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Hopkinson
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

How bizarre. John Smith son of James Smith and Elizabeth was baptised on the same date, 8 September 1816, the only baptism for those parents 1770-1840. James and Elizabeth appear to have been Sarah Smith's parents.

There are quite a few births around Nottinghamshire 1810-1840 with mother Sarah Smith, no father or father with different surname. This is the only other one in Calverton:

Name: Mary Smith
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 13 Mar 1814
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


to check:

Name: Reuben Henry Sansome
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 08 Apr 1827
Baptism/Christening Place: BASFORD,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Sansome
Mother's Name: Sarah
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

(He is in 1841 census; corrected name. 1881 in Radford. Ruled out.)


Re the 1841 Robert Cooper household in Calverton -- ruling out this baptism as youngest son Joseph:

Name: Joseph Turner
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Aug 1836
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Turner
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

(No other Turner with mother Elizabeth in Calverton.) They're in the 1841.

No children for Robert Cooper and Elizabeth.

From reading my post on the Clinic board,

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/help_clinic/thread/1249379

Helen sent me this:

Just flinging this into the mix regarding the search for Reuben Cooper in 1841. Noticed it on the Helpers board.

Piece: SCT1841/652 Place: Old Monkland -Lanarkshire Enumeration District: 14A
Civil Parish: Old Monkland Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 15 Page: 9
Address: Calder Bank

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
COOPER Rueben M 15 Iron Puddler England
COOPER Jane F 15 England
MCDONALD Sarah F 15 Female Servant Outside Census County (1841)

If this info is not relevant .. just ignore it.



I am feeling dim again -- after the last time somebody found one of my English ancestors (born Wiltshire of long Wiltshire roots, married in Bristol, I've since finally found, lived and died in Wiltshire) getting married in Scotland, I thought I'd have learned.

But ... I think that Reuben is probably connected with this Reuben, in 1841:

Name: Rueben Cowper
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1803
Where born: England
(wife Jane, 40, born Foreign Parts !)

Civil Parish: Old Monkland
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Calder Bank
Occupation: Iron Pudler


and in 1851:

Name: Ruben Cooper
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Cooper - born Kilmany, Argyle
Where born: England

Civil Parish: Gorbals
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 2 Reform Court
Occupation: Puddler


... and it looks kind of remote. But no sign of the junior Reuben yet after 1841 ...

I got too excited and beat you to it. ;)

Groom's Name: Reuben Cooper
Bride's Name: Mary Mclean (another record says McDonald or McLean)
Marriage Date: 29 Jun 1840
Marriage Place: Bothwell,Lanark,Scotland
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11625-4
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 1042965
Collection: Scotland Marriages, 1561-1910.

... no, wait - the one in the censuses was still married to Jane in 1841 ..


I suspect this is a child of Reuben Jr:

Name: Zacharias Cooper
Birth Date: 17 May 1856
Birthplace: SPRINGBURN,LANARK,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Reuben Cooper
Mother's Name: Margaret Pellie
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11915-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950



The Reuben who is definitely mine (married Mary Ann Fallowell 1872, several years after the birth of their last child) said his father was Robert Cooper, framework knitter, and that is credible, although by no means to be taken as gospel.

http://www.astillfamilytree.8m.com/aqwg25.htm

I wonder if these Coopers are connected to yours?

Not a direct answer but may hold some clues.