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Wow... you are all amazing detectives... I can't keep up....

The Jewell side of things certainly seems to tie up, I have already found thanks to Tim Prichard, a lot of Helena's maternal line of Attewell's - They are on my 'sapling' of a tree. ( Let me know if anyone wants a look - all welcome... )

But i'm not yet totally convinced about John Arthur Gunter... Dad has always said that his Dad and Grandad owned & ran a bakery in Risca. Newport. Cyril had to give up his studies in order to work at the bakery with his mother when his father died young. And I have a photo of a Bakers Van with F.(Florence) Thomas (Florence's second husbands name.) written on the side. ( which i will post, if i can work out how...? )
Also as JanSmith said.... Where was little Cyril on the night of the census ... Why wasn't he at home & why wasn't he mentioned?

I had just found the census with John as a stockbroker and half discounted that, so was just moving one when i saw all of this amazing stream activity....

We really need Cyril's birth certificate don't we? That will prove it once and for all.

Many, many thanks everybody.... I really am most grateful.
I am currently staying with & looking after my Dad,( Cyril's son Douglas,) who is really quite poorly. All of this is fascinating him.
Best regards,
Ian Gunter.

It is strange that we can't find Cyril in 1911 :-S :-S :-S

Please let us know when you receive his birth certificate, can't wait to see what that document reveals!

Best wishes, Liz

PS Hope your Dad's health improves soon.

Many thanks re Dad, he is going through Chemo. But fighting hard & well at the moment. It is really puzzling why Cyril wasn't there... he would have only have been 4. To be honest, i can't find the reference that said there was a son not at home.... I can only see that John lived with his wife & his mother in Law... But i'll keep looking, i'm a beginner at all this and not yet vary familiar with all of these documents.
But don't worry, I will certainly tell everyone once I get the certificate. the receipt just said despatched in 15 days, so we shall see.
All the best, & thanks Liz.
Ian.

Ian you need to look at the original 1911 census document which will show that Florrie has a child.

Cyril could be staying with relations who should have added him to their census but it's looking very much as though he's been omitted.

ok will do.. Claire...
but why would you have your 4 year old sone staying with relations whilst your mother in Law stays in the house... ? & thats not a mother in law joke .. by the way...
It seems that John had a reasonably substantial household. - steel foundry stockbroker. & Florence's widowed Mother would more than likely been an eager carer of her Grandson, if he was ill?
Edward/alisas John Arther, died young, but apparently that was due to a bronchial condition caused by the bakery dust, this apparently also killed Cyril in the end. So theres no apparent congenital illness that we know of for Cyril, that would mean he couldn't stay at home.
cheers, & good night.
ian

Just posting this to check where John A's siblings are in 1911 in case Cyril is lurking with one of them.

1881

Name: Jacob Gunter
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Gunter
Gender: Male
Where born: Risca, Monmouth, Wales
Civil Parish: Risca
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: Tap Room Pontymister
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Hammerman
Registration district: Newport
Sub registration district: St Woollos
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 5270
Folio: 45
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Jacob Gunter 31, Hammerman / Blacksmith
Ann Gunter 29
Louisa H. Gunter 8
William E. Gunter 6
Rosa A. Gunter 4
Elizabeth J. Gunter 2
John A. Gunter 5 months
Francis W. Hemmings 12 Stepson

Living next door is John Gunter (also a Blacksmith) and his family.

1911

Name: Mr Jacob Gunter
Age in 1911: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Pontymister, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Risca
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: 22 Park Place Risca
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Labourer Gas Phericers
Registration district: Newport
Registration District Number: 587
Sub-registration district: Rogerstone
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Household schedule number: 153
Piece: 32018
Household Members:
Name Age
Jacob Gunter 60 Widower
Louisa Hannah Morgan 38 Widow
Osman Llewyn Gunter 25
Ethel Sarah Gunter 23
Iscila May Gunter 15


Although it has been crossed out image says Jacob had 12 children, 10 living, 2 had died.

1901

Name: Jacob Gunter
Age in 1901: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Gunter
Gender: Male
Where born: Machen, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Risca
Ecclesiastical parish: Risca
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Newport (Monmouthshire)
Sub-registration district: Rogerstone
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 239
Piece: 4964
Folio: 172
Page Number: 43
Household Members:
Name Age
Jacob Gunter 51
Ann Gunter 49
Louisa Hannah Gunter 28
Wm Edward Gunter 26
Elizth Jane Gunter 22
Ivor Thomas Gunter 18
Osman Llewellyn Gunter 15
Ethel Sarah Gunter 14
Iscila May Gunter 5

1891


Name: Jacob Gunter
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Gunter
Gender: Male
Where born: Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Risca
Ecclesiastical parish: Risca
Town: Risca
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Newport
Sub registration district: St Woollos
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4379
Folio: 159
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
Jacob Gunter 40
Ann Gunter 39
Frank Gunter 21
Louisa Gunter 18
William E Gunter 16
Rosa A Gunter 14
Elizabeth Gunter 12
Arthur Gunter 10
Ivor T Gunter 8
Osmon Gunter 5
Ethel Gunter 4

wow, root gatherer, there is a lot resting on the delivery of Cyril's birth certificate now isn't there... many many thanks...

My pleasure Ian :-)

There certainly is Ian - I have found a load of Gunters from old directories - 2 are bakers but none match so maybe when you get the cert we will be able to find a connection ??

Dea Xxx

This cert could be as exciting as waiting for Christmas!
;-)

Name: John Arthur Gunter
Probate Date: 7 Jun 1922
Death Date: 2 May 1922
Death Place: Monmouthshire, Wales
Registry: Llandaff


John Arthur Gunter of 25 Commercial Street, Pontymister, Risca died there. Probate to Florence Ellen Gunter widow. Effects £368. 16s. 7d.

In 1914 there was an Edward E Gunter who was a Confectioner at 145 Commercial St. Risca ......................

Dea Xxx

Edward E GUNTER would probably be Edward Edmunds GUNTER. He died a few days before John Arthur GUNTER and was John's father's brother! Interestingly, he also wasn't a baker or confectioner in 1911.

Why would Cyril be away from home on the night of the census?

Could be in hospital but they're usually pretty good with filling out census
Maybe mum was sick and granny was looking after her
Perhaps he was just staying with a relation or maybe I'm even looking at totally the wrong family.

Now we're all waiting for this cert to get stuck in the Christmas post!

oh gosh all the plot thickens .... so perhaps Claires theory, re the can of worms has an extra twist of Edward Edmunds Gunter.. the baker ..... has he been putting buns in someone else's oven? :)

The certificate isn't due until the 31st, so xmas will be boring by comparison..... :-)

We await the cert with baited breath !!!!!!!!!!!!! Or some such like !!

Dea Xxx

Cyril may just have been away from home for an overnight and the people he was with perhaps misunderstood that he should be included on that household return and assumed that he had been listed on his parents form. After all there are many many examples of folks appearing at two different addresses on the census returns. :-)

????


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
67 Whiteway Road St George Bristol, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Arthur Gunter Head Married Male 39 1872 St Georges Bristol Pressman Rough Stuff Citter
Transcription
Florry Gunter Wife Wife Female 37 1874 St Georges Bristol Boot Machinst
Transcription
Florry Gunter Daughter - Female 14 1897 St Georges Bristol Tailoreiss Trousers Finisher
Transcription
Elisie Gunter Daughter - Female 11 1900 St Georges Bristol School
Transcription
Arthur Gunter Son - Male 9 1902 St Georges Bristol School
Transcription
Cryil Gunter Son - Male 7 1904 St Georges Bristol School xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Transcription
Wilfred Gunter Son - Male 4 1907 St Georges Bristol -
Transcription
Elizabeth Kerslake Mother In Law Widow Female 70 1841 Winscombe Sommersit Old Age Pensioner

i can't find this cryil on

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Marriages Mar 1896 (>99%)
Gunter Richard Bristol 6a 87
Hawkins George Bristol 6a 87
Kerslake Florence Bristol 6a 87
PERRETT Annie Bristol 6a 87