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thanks for the info on James Barton cain. If he was a, stage hand he may have helped with William quinns boxing shows perhaps. And maybe also have been a traveller. :-)

might be right. Yes I'm clutching at straws with this family or moth sides of the family. I'm going to get Mary quinns death certificate to get more clues. Because they all seemed to be travellers I think they sailed close to the wind with officialdom. I think that Erica may be right when she says Edward Anderson might not be Mary andersons dad. Because she was 17 when she was getting married to an older William quinn I think they may not have had permission to marry. William quinn never married again and neither did Mary, just lived with partners and had more children. William Quinn had chikdren in the forties and we hear Mary had more after leaving William sweeney (gaffney). :-)

How clear is the handwriting on the 1928 marriage cert?

As one godparent is usually (always?) male, I'm wondering about this man - if perhaps (grasping at straws) he called himself Barty.

[CORRECTION - As Erikah has noticed (post below, now deleted) I've had a senior moment, calling the witnesses godparents!
And I don't think there's a rule about the gender of witnesses. ]


I repeat - grasping at straws!

In 1921 -

James Mitchell Barton
Cain
1885
Halifax, Yorkshire, England
Halifax
Halifax
Yorkshire (West Riding)

He's with Phoebe Harriet (his wife) , James William, and 3 others.


CAIN, JAMES MITCHELL mmn BARTON
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 425


James Mitchell Barton Cain
in the UK, British Army World War I Pension Records 1914-1920
Name: James Mitchell Barton Cain
Gender: Male
Document Year: 1915
Residence Place: 15 Wiscome Bank, Halifax
Regimental Number: 4708
Regiment Name: Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment
Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation
Number of Images: 8
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
James Mitchell Barton Cain Self (Head)
Wm Govier Step Father


James M B Cain
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: James M B Cain
Registration Date: Apr 1916[May 1916] [Jun 1916]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Halifax
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Spouse: Phoebe H Minshall
Volume Number: 9a
Page Number: 981


James M B Cain
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: James M B Cain
Death Age: 53
Birth Date: abt 1886
Registration Date: Apr 1939[May 1939] [Jun 1939]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Halifax
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9a
Page: 505


In 1891 he's in Burslem, Staffs, with his mother and stepfather, under the name Govier.
I don't see the family in 1901.
In 1911 he (at least, possibly him) is in Halifax, listed just as James Cain, working as a stage hand.

Can't see a marriage for his mother and stepfather.


However, this is only a wild suggestion, and he doesn't seem to be any relation in any case.

'Beaty' is logically a shortening of the name BEATRICE................

Possibly.
I don't see a Gaffney/Tobin marriage for her mother, and only her mother's name is on the baptism record.


Do you have a copy of the marriage cert, for the exact wording? Or her mother's marriage to Thomas Cox might also give some clue.

You already knew much of what I've posted.
The old threads which ErikaH mentions -

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1394314

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1372587

so does this mean that even though rose hannah is calling herself gaffney her name is rose hannah tobin as msybe her mum and dad didn't marry. So is the 1919 late marriage a correct one then when she called herself tobin when marrying Martin sweeney? :-S

thanks for all this. We are trying to retrace our steps and get it right this time as we got confused as the family is a
very disjointed. Thankyou fir the gaffney info, really useful. :-) :-)

Thread concerning Rose posted 2021

Thread re Mary Anderson posted 2018

Rose Hannah - she had chopped several years off her age in 1911:

GAFFNEY, ROSE HANNAH mmn TOBIN
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 392


Rose H Sweeney
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Rose H Sweeney
Death Age: 72
Birth Date: abt 1876
Registration Date: Jul 1948[Aug 1948] [Sep 1948]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: Burnley
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10b
Page: 562


Rose Ann Gaffney
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Rose Ann Gaffney
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 8 Apr 1877
Baptism Place: St Osmund, Gainford, Durham, England
Mother: Mary Gaffney
FHL Film Number: 2082461


Rose Gaffney
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Rose Gaffney
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relationship to Head: Step Daughter
Mother: Mary H. Cox
Gender: Female
Where born: Evenwood, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Evenwood and Barony
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: Oaks
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration District: Auckland
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors:
Piece: 4929
Folio: 55
Page Number: 35
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Cox 24
Mary H. Cox 23
Rose Gaffney 2
John Thomas Cox 1


Marriages Jun 1879 (>99%)
Cox Thomas Auckland 10a 243
GAFFNEY Mary Ann Auckland 10a 243



In 1939 Martin Sweeney (senior) is in a lodging house in Bacup.

Rose H SW??Y [ Rose H Sweeney on image ]
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Rose H SW??Y
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 6 Feb 1876
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 8 Leeds St.
Residence Place: Burnley, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number: 44
Schedule Number: 76
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: Nfaq
Borough: Burnley
Registration district: 472/1
Household Members (Name) Age
Rose H SW??Y 63
Leonard Sweeney 29
James M Sweeney 33


James M Sweeney is Martin junior in 1911 - born Gaffney as posted earlier.

William/Willie's birth :

GAFFNEY, WILLIAM -
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 428

Another child who died ??

SWEENEY, RICHARD mmn GAFFNEY
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in BURNLEY Volume 08E Page 153


SWEENEY, RICHARD 0
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 62

It's his mother who was born in Brandon, per the 1911 image.
Willie was stated to be born in Burnley.


Willin Sweeny
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Willin Sweeny [Willie on image ]
Age in 1911: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1904
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Brandon, Lancashire, England [ Burnley on image]
Civil Parish: Rawtenstall
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 1 Hill End Waterfoot
Occupation: School
Registration District Number: 471
Sub-registration District: Rawtenstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 09
Piece: 24703
Household Members:
Name Age
Marton Sweeny 38
Ross Hannah Sweeny 28 - Brandon, Durham
Willin Sweeny 7 - Burnley
Martin Sweeny 4 - Burnley
Leonard Sweeny 6/12 - Newchurch, Lancs

The parents are said to have been married for 10 years, which is clearly not true.


Mentioned in the father's army record:

William Sweeney
in the UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: William Sweeney
Birth Date: 16 Oct 1903 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Place: Halifax <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Relationship to Soldier: Child
Form Title: Descriptive Report Enrolment
Other Records:
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
William Sweeney Child
Martin Sweeney Self (Head) - age 40 years, 9 months, scissors grinder
Martin Sweeney Child - 11 July 1906, Burnley
Leonard Sweeney Child - 16 Sept 1910, Waterfoot

NOK: Rose Hannah Gaffney. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Unmarried. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


SWEENEY, LEONARD mmn GAFFNEY
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 71


Martin Sweeney ???:

GAFFNEY, JAMES MARTIN -
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in THE BURNLEY UNION Volume 08E Page 163


??
GAFFNEY, MICHAEL mmn TOBIN
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in THE BURNLEY UNION Volume 08E Page 174

Don't know if Michael Gaffney is relevant. He seems to have married in 1931, and died in Burnley, 1946. However I don't see him in 1911.


According to William's father Martin's army record, he (Martin) had a brother Richard, living in Manchester in 1916.

yes I've contacted them. They are the most difficult family ever. Even the sweeney side via William sweeney supposedly born October 1903 or October 1904 is also a, questionable birth as it says born burnley or Brandon to Martin sweeney and rosehanna sweeney nee tobin (?) They were defibately his parents as they were known to the family. But they didn't marry until 1919. This makes me wonder wether they didn't bother or because one of them was still married. And there's no sign of a William sweeney birth so that's another problem :-(

As you think they are Travellers have you come across the Romany & Traveller family history society.
www.rtfhs.org.uk

yes found lucilla and Edgar but not able to to find beaty cain. they are a very confusing family who seemed to not conform to the usual rules of registration etc. Guess travellers did thst. :-( :-)

No help, but -
Lucilla White doesn't seem to have been any relation.



Lucilla White
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Lucilla White
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widowed
Birth Date: 17 Jan 1886
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 8
Residence Place: Halifax, Yorkshire (West Riding), England
Occupation: Caretaker Officer
Line Number: 41
Schedule Number: 252
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: Keng
Borough: Halifax
Registration district: 496/2
Household Members (Name) Age
Lucilla White 53
Velma White 22


Marriages Dec 1909 (>99%)
GREENWOOD Lucilla Halifax 9a 851
WHITE Edgar Halifax 9a 851

so it's probably not the Mary Anderson born easington. Unless I can find exactly when that one was born. They, or at least the quinns and andersons were travelling families because Annie says she was living in a caravan when she was born. We have heard William quinn was a bare knuckled boxer and he travelled all over the place. He met another lady in the forties and had children with her but never married her. Maybe because he was still married to Mary. Mary also went on to have more children as this was said by Margaret June who met them very briefly. William Sweeney and Mary quinn nee Anderson definately lived as partners though they didn't marry. :-)

mm interesting. We did think James Anderson and Mary sweeney were the parents. but when we got marys marriage certificate it said Edward so back to the drawing board. All we know is thst Mary Anderson married William quinn in 1928.She went on to have Annie quinn in halifax with William. Then we lose her until she appears in the 1939 census with William sweeney who we know is father of Martin sweeney and Margaret June with Mary quinn nee Anderson. The three chikdren born in Burnley were registered under both Quinn andSweeney. I thought thst might be because she was married to quinn still but the children were sweeneys. Catherine Barry
was William sweeneys first wife and she was not sister of Mary. She died in 1932.The chikdren were Annie, William, Martin and Margaret June. Martin died as a child. Annie was definateky William quinn and Mary andersons child. We know this as Margaret June told us this. And Margaret June says her mum disappeared and left her with William sweeney with all the kids, including Annie. She didn't really know her mum but knew she died in Halifax in 1987 :-)

James Anderson
in the 1911 England Census
Name: James Anderson
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Fellonsoh Tyne, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Seaham
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: Vesey's Buildings New Seaham
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Coal Miner Putter (belon Ground)
Registration District Number: 552
Sub-registration District: Dawdon
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 30036
Household Members:
Name Age
James Anderson 21
Mary Anderson 21
Mary Anderson 3/12


So IF Edward really was your Mary's father, the Easington birth isn't the right one.

James Anderson m. Mary Sweeney 1910

Three further children after Mary