Find Ancestors

Thank you everyone for your help and once again I apologise for not checking my previous posts

Nudge............to tie in with post added today

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1401216

Still struggling with the Eliza Dobson and Keen connection :-(

I also confirmed that on the 1841 census with William and Mary Keen was a Joseph Johnson. He was their son.
Marys maiden name was Johnson and on Josephs marriage to Ann Williams
It says Fathers name William Keen


Record details
Name Joseph Johnson
Gender Male
Marriage Date 18 May 1843
Marriage Place Betley,Stafford,England
Father William Keene
Spouse Anne Williams
FHL Film Number 426484, 96875

There is no marriage for a George Bailey to an Eliza Cooper.

I still think Eliza Dobson/Keen sometimes called herself Cooper for some reason - but can't prove it!

Good Morning

Just a quick update.

I received the birth certificates of George Dobson and his twin sister Mary
Mary was the older twin born at 6am and George born at 6.15 am
2nd January 1851 Betley Common
No fathers name and mothers name is Eliza Dobson of Betley Common, Betley, Audley district Staffordshire.

I also ordered the birth certificate of Charles Bailey
Born 13th June 1864 in Betley
Mother Eliza Bailey maiden name Cooper
Fathers name GEORGE Bailey

Not sure the Bailey is the right connection with Eliza Dobson

ArgyllGran

Thank you.
The lady who had done the Dobson name correction has got back to me.
Her connection is she was doing a tree for her step daughter and she only has the information you have mentioned
She doesnt know anything about the surname Keen,
I will get in contact with mycomb1 and see if she has any other information
Thank you once again

The person you have contacted about the 1841 census has Eliza's daughter Hannah Eliza Bailey 1866, Betley, Staffs on a private tree on Ancestry (Young Family Tree).
However, she doesn't have Hannah Eliza's siblings, so presumably Hannah is her ancestor - possibly only by marriage.



Another "owner" (called mycomb1) who has several private Ancestry trees, has Eliza Bailey 1867 Betley on a tree named Sutton Family Tree.
Mycomb1 (who last signed in to Ancestry this week) also has Eliza DOBSON 1833 Madeley on the same tree, and may be worth contacting.


Several trees have Eliza Keen , but only from 1861 census onwards.

On the 1841 census there has been a correction to Eliza Dopson to Eliza Dobson. I
I have message the person who has done the correction.
There might not be any connection .
Perhaps they are looking into the surnames Dopson/Dobson or they just spotted a bad transcription
You never know

ArgylGran

Thank you so much for all your help.
I am awaiting a couple of certificates but not sure they are going to be much help.

I might have a look into the Johnson Surname.

The surname Keen is a mystery. My brother in law knows nothing about any other name .

His grandfather was William Thomas Keen born 1881 to George Keen and Hannah
Jones ( Heywood) .
Thats as much as he knows
He's never heard of any the surnames of Dobson, Johnson, Bailey, Cooper.

I'll keep going down any path until we can make a breakthough

Thank you once again for your help

Hmmm - interesting!

Posting the mmn Cooper birth again for reference:

BAILEY, CHARLES mmn COOPER
GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UNDER LYME Volume 06B Page 61


But there's also this, with the same reference number;

COOPER, CHARLES mmn KEEN
GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UNDER LYME Volume 06B Page 61

That doesn't mean there's any connection, but I can't find convincing parents for either of them.

A Thomas Bailey married a Sarah Cooper in Newcastle under Lyme in March 1864 - but there's no son Charles with them in 1871 or later, and I can't see his death before 1871.

There's no obvious Cooper/Keen marriage.
A Charles Cooper was baptised in Betley in 1865, with parents George and Elizabeth - but the only likely marriage I see was in 1861 in Betley.
However, Elizabeth's mn was Walker, and she hadn't been married before..
There's no birth record for a Charles Cooper/Walker.


It seems odd that we can find birth records for all the children listed with James Bailey in 1861 and 1871 - except Charles.

Charles in 1939:

Charles Bailey
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Charles Bailey
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Widowed
Birth Date: 17 Jun 1864
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 209
Residence Place: West Bromwich, Staffordshire, England
Occupation: Miner - Retired
Line Number: 44
Schedule Number: 133
Sub Schedule Number: 3
Enumeration District: Opay
Borough: West Bromwich
Registration district: West Bromwich 371-19a
Household Members Age
Joseph Johnson 64 - married [DOB 16 Aug 1875 ]
Mary E Johnson 49 - married [20 Sept 1890]
Charles Bailey 75



There's that Johnson name again - but maybe just coincidence . It's not an unusual name.

Charles and Betsey are buried in the same grave:

Betsy Smith Bailey
Birth
unknown [ Says aged 45 years ]
Death
1911
Burial
St. Mary's Churchyard, Bucknall, Stoke-on-Trent Unitary Authority, Staffordshire, England
Memorial ID
225285643



Charles Bailey
in the UK and Ireland, Find a Grave Index, 1300s-Current
Name: Charles Bailey
Gender: Male
Cemetery: St. Mary's Churchyard
Burial or Cremation Place: Bucknall, Stoke-on-Trent Unitary Authority, Staffordshire, England
Spouse:
Betsy Bailey

There are photos, but the inscription is very hard to read.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/225285827/charles-bailey

It seems to say that Charles died in 1940-something. 1943? 1945?, 1948?
Aged 81 (???) years.


???
Deaths Sep 1945 (>99%)
Bailey Charles 81 W.Bromwich 6b 559


Betsy Bailey
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Betsy Bailey
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place: Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire, United Kingdom
Death Date: Dec 1911
Inferred Death Place: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
Volume: 6b
Page: 344

Aha!

Well, the one with mmn Dobson must be the correct one.
I don't know how I missed that when searching for her birth.

In that case, maybe the birth and death of Charles Bailey with mmn Cooper aren't Eliza's son after all.
[ And , in fact, the "death" I posted was actually his birth - sorry about that! ]

However, I don't see his birth with mmn Dobson or Keen.

ArgyllGran thank you so much for your help

Im going to have to put this all down on paper so I can understand it a bit better.

There are 2 births in 1857 for Elizabeth Bailey .
One with mothers maiden name DOBSON the other with the name COOPER

BAILEY, ELIZABETH DOBSON
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UNDER LYME Volume 06B Page 63

BAILEY, ELIZABETH COOPER
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UNDER LYME Volume 06B Page 59

Charles's sister Elizabeth 1857, whose birth also gives mmn as Cooper , never married.


1861 and 1871 censuses already posted.

Elizabeth Bailey
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Bailey
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: James Bailey
Gender: Female
Where born: Betley, Staffordshire, England
Civil Parish: Betley
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration District: Newcastle Under Lyme
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors:
Piece: 2703
Folio: 144
Page Number: 27
Household Members:
Name Age
James Bailey 47
Elizabeth Bailey 24
Eliza Bailey 14 - daughter [James's daughter ]
Fanny Bailey 67 - James's mother


Elizabeth Bailey
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Bailey
Gender: Female
Age: 34
Relationship: Daughter
Birth Year: 1857
Father:
James Bailey
Birth Place: Betley, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Betley
Ecclesiastical parish: Betley
Residence Place: Cracow Moss, Betley, Staffordshire, England
Registration district: Newcastle Under Lyme
Sub registration district: Audley
ED, Institution or Vessel: 12
Neighbors:
Piece: 2152
Folio: 123
Household Members Age Relationship
James Bailey 59 Head
Elizabeth Bailey 34 Daughter
Eliza Bailey 24 Daughter


Living alone in 1901:

Elizabeth Bailey
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Bailey
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Betley, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Betley
Search Photos:
View blank form
Ecclesiastical parish: Betley St Margaret
Town: Betley
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Newcastle under Lyme
Sub-registration district: Audley
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors:
Piece: 2584
Folio: 17
Page number: 10
Household schedule number: 60


Elizabeth Bailey
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Bailey
Age in 1911: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Betley, Staffordshire
Civil Parish: Betley
Country: England
Street Address: Cracow Moss, Betley, Nr Crewe
Marital status: Single
Occupation: Charwoman
Registration District Number: 359
Sub-registration District: Audley
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Piece: 16438
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Bailey 54
Eliza Hannah Bailey 44 - sister



Elizabeth Bailey
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Elizabeth Bailey
Death Age: 66
Birth Date: abt 1857
Registration Date: Apr 192[May 1923][Jun 1923]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Newcastle under Lyme
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 59



Elizabeth Bailey
in the Staffordshire, England, Birth, Marriage and Death Indexes, 1837-2017
Name: Elizabeth Bailey
Record Type: Birth
Birth Date: 1857
Birth Place: Staffordshire, England
Mother: Dobson <<<<<<


So for some reason, Eliza Dobson/Keen also gave her maiden name as Cooper in 1857 and 1864.

It might be interesting to see the exact info re Eliza on Charles and Elizabeth's birth certs.

Charles's death - with that mystery mmn Cooper again, as in his birth record:

Charles Bailey
in the Staffordshire, England, Birth, Marriage and Death Indexes, 1837-2017
Name: Charles Bailey
Record Type: Birth
Birth Date: 1864
Birth Place: Staffordshire, England
Mother: Cooper


EDIT: NO, sorry - that's the birth record !

Looks like Mary kept the surname Bailey, and never married:


Mary Bailey
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Mary Bailey
Gender: Female
Age: 40
Relationship: Sister
Birth Year: 1851
Birth Place: Betley, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Stoke upon Trent
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Residence Place: Boothen, Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire, England
Registration district: Stoke Upon Trent
Sub registration district: Stoke upon Trent
ED, Institution or Vessel: 15
Neighbors:
Piece: 2177
Folio: 76
Household Members Age Relationship
Chas Bailey 25 Head
Betsey Bailey 25 Wife
Mary Bailey 40 Sister
Elizabeth Bailey 6/12 Daughter


Mary Bailey
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Mary Bailey
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation to Head: Sister
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Hanley
Ecclesiastical parish: Shelton St Mark
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Stoke upon Trent
Sub-registration district: Shelton
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors:
Piece: 2607
Folio: 83
Page number: 26
Household schedule number: 159

Also listed are brother Charles, his wife Betsey, and children Mary E 11, Lily 9, and William H 5.



Mary Baily
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Mary Baily
Age in 1911: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation to Head: Sister
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Betley, Staffordshire
Civil Parish: Stoke Rural
Country: England
Street Address: 16 High St, Bucknall, Stoke On Trent
Marital status: Single
Registration District Number: 361
Sub-registration District: Stoke Rural
ED, institution, or vessel: 03
Piece: 16611
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Baily 46 - Head, Betley
Betsey Baily 44 - wife
Mary Baily 60 - sister
May Baily 20
Lily Baily 18
William Baily 14
John Baily 6
George Baily 3


???
Mary Bailey
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Mary Bailey
Death Age: 74
Birth Date: abt 1852
Registration Date: Jan 1926[Feb 1926] [Mar 1926]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: West Bromwich
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 967


Charles's marriage:

Charles Bailey
in the Staffordshire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1900
Name: Charles Bailey
Marriage Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1864
Residence Place: Church St
Marriage Date: 8 Apr 1888
Marriage Place: Hanley, St John, Staffordshire, England
Father:
James Bailey <<<<<<<<<<
Spouse:
Betsy Smith
Religion: Anglican
Page number: 196


1921:

Charles
Bailey
1864
Staffordshire, England
Stoke Rural
Stoke upon Trent
Staffordshire

He's with Mary Bailey 1851, WH Bailey 1897, John Bailey 1905, George Bailey 1907, and Maggie Bailey 1895

So Eliza 's real surname was Dobson and her married surname was Bailey .

Her twins were registered in her maiden name of Dobson as she only married 5 years later.

She lived with the Keen family but I wonder what the connection was. It must have been a strong one as George is known as George Keen all his life

The age of the twins on the 1861 census are Mary 10 and George 6 ?

I think I will look into Mary Keen/Dobson who was georges sister and see if she turns up anything.

George is my brother in laws great grandfather

Thank you all once again for your help

Eliza was UNMARRIED on the1851 census you posted in your OP