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Yes the 1851 Marriage is mine A fox marring a Kelly Then a Kelly marring a fox

John Fox is Catherine Fox's Father don't think Ann Kelly is related but not got any Irish records Both their fathers are Patrick

You mentioned Ireland.

Catherine Fox's parents were born in Ireland, per censuses 1861 and 1871.

Interestingly, his wife was a Kelly. She was born in Roscommon.

??
Marriages Dec 1851 (>99%)
Fox John Manchester 20 507
Kelly Ann Manchester 20 507



Catherine and siblings:

FOX, CATHERINE KELLY
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 180

FOX, PATRICK KELLY
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 161

FOX, BRIDGET KELLY
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 179

FOX, JOHN RENNY
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 190

FOX, ANN KELLY
GRO Reference: 1862 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 167

I have looked in the past for Catherine's father James's death but with out knowing when I found it hard to pin point him I even went to a Catholic grave yard where some one had said he might have been buried but they wanted £35 just to check one date? their are a lot of dates between 1901 and 1907

Also can't find the birth of Mary A Fox, aged 1 in 1881 census posted above.
At least not if she's the illegitimate daughter of either Catherine or Bridget.

Sorry Catherine was 22 when she married

A few years ago I was in touch with one of Mary's daughters she confirmed that it was the right family Annie Catherine's sister Emigrated to Canada and her father used to write to her .

So we know that James and Catherine Had John Catherine Annie and Mary
I just can't understand why I can't find their births.

Ann's marriage again - so she may well be the sister of Catherine. Age and father's name fit:
Ann's age fits Catherine's sister in census .

EDIT:
I saw Ann's age as 1 in some census or other, but can't find it again now.
She was actually born 1862, so maybe not her sister after all.


Ann Fox
in the Manchester, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930
Name: Ann Fox
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 23
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1870
Marriage Date: 21 Jan 1893
Marriage Place: Ancoats, St Andrew, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Manchester, St Andrew
Father: John Fox, deceased, painter
Spouse: Michael Kelly [ father: Michael Kelly, labourer, deceased ]

Catherine in 1871:


Catherine Fox
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Catherine Fox
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: 1859
Relation: Daughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: Chorlton on Medlock
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration District: Chorlton
Sub-registration District: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household Schedule Number: 76
Piece: 3987
Folio: 80
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
John Fox 40
Ann Fox 40
Patrick Fox 18
Bridget Fox 16
John Fox 14
Catherine Fox 12
Ann Fox 9


And possiblly in 1881, with sister and a child - whose child??


Catherine Fox
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Catherine Fox
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relationship to Head: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Chorlton on Medlock
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 15 Allin St
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Braid Tenter Factory Operative
Registration District: Chorlton
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors:
Piece: 3920
Folio: 22
Page Number: 37
Household Members:
Name Age
Daniel Lawles 28
Lewis Lawles 27
William Lawles 7
Robert Lawles 4
Bridget Fox 23
Catherine Fox 21
Mary A. Fox 1

Catherine Kelly's 'father' was 'deceased' when she married. Have you looked for his death?

Thanks for the 1882 marriage details.

So if James was a labourer in 1882, he's not likely to be the man in 1891, listed as a Master M. . . . . . .

But on the other hand, aged 25 in 1882 makes his birth c1857., which would fit the age of the man in 1891 census.

The man in 1901 with Catherine and Mary was born c1874, if the age on the census is more or less correct.


Aaaaaghh!

What was Catherine's age at marriage? You haven't typed the whole number.

Her maiden name was definitely Fox, however - I had wondered if she might have been married before and therefore mmn would be something else, which might have helped find children's births - but no such luck!

Are you quite sure that Mary is the daughter of Catherine and James?

EDIT: My apologies. Yes, she is - see later post. Ann Kelly nee Fox is Catherine's sister.


I know I posted 1901 for a Mary Kelly with parents James and Catherine.

But there's this child in 1911 who might be the one born in 1898 - birth already posted.
There's only one Mary Kelly, mms Fox, registered in Manchester 1896-1900.


Mary Kelly
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Mary Kelly
Age in 1911: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1898
Relation to Head: Single
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 25 Matthew St Hulme M/C
Marital status: Single
Occupation: At Home
Registration District: Chorlton
Registration District Number: 464
Sub-registration District: Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel: 01
Piece: 23866
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Kelly 13
Joseph Kelly 6

Also in the household, but transcribed sparately on Ancestry, are -
Michael Kelly, head, 46, grey cloth warehouseman, Manchester, and Annie Kelly, wife, 38, Manchester.
Married 17 years, 6 children, 4 deceased.

Michael Kelly
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Michael Kelly
Age in 1911: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: England, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 25 Matthew St Hulme M/C
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Grey Cloth Warehouseman
Registration District: Chorlton
Registration District Number: 464
Sub-registration District: Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel: 01
Piece: 23866
Household Members:
Name Age
Michael Kelly 46
Annie Kelly 38


Marriages Mar 1893 (>99%)
Fox Ann Manchester 8d 177
Kelly Michael Manchester 8d 177


KELLY, JOSEPH mms FOX
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 215

On the other hand,although I've assumed Mary and Joseph to be the children of Annie and Michael, the census form doesn't say what relation the children are to the adults - so maybe not their children - maybe niece and nephew ??.

EDIT:
Yes, Ann is Catherine's sister - see later post.


Looking for the 4 deceased children:

Births:
KELLY, JAMES FOX
GRO Reference: 1893 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 871

KELLY, JOSEPH FOX
GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 900

KELLY, ANNIE FOX
GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 890

Mary 1898 and Joseph 1905 are the only other Kelly/Fox children I can see registered in either Chorlton or Manchester 1893-1911.

Possible deaths:

??
Deaths Sep 1902 (>99%)
KELLY Joseph 5 Chorlton 8c 408

??
Deaths Sep 1897 (>99%)
Kelly Joseph 0 Manchester 8d 190

Deaths Mar 1901 (>99%)
Kelly Annie 5 Manchester 8d 149

Don't see a likely death for James 1893

16 Sept 1882 The church of holy family Chorlton
James Kelly 25 Bach Labourer father James Kelly Labourer DEC
Catherine Fox 2 spin father John Fox Labourer DEC
wit:-Margaret Dean and John Daley

They were both at 5 Mosley St Chorlton upon Medlock

Do you have the marriage cert of James Kelly and Catherine Fox?
Perhaps you do, as you know the exact date of marriage.

If so, please give us all the details of that too.

Sorry Her marriage certificate to Joseph Turner

15 Aug 1907 Chorlton Reg Office
Joseph Turner 22 Bach Labour in Iron works father Thomas a farm labourer Dec
Catherine Kelly 22 Spin Father James Joseph a Labourer in Iron Works Dec
Both at 9 Lw Chelthem St Chorlton upon Medlock
Wit:-James Cannon and Caroline Charlesworth

Cannon is the name of joseph's mothers second husband but not sure where James comes in

You haven't yet answered my question about her father's occupation on her marriage cert - and the witnesses

The only census anyone can positively say (at the moment) is the right woman is 1911 - after her marriage

Right
Yes That is Catherine she Married Joseph Turner the ages have always got us changing as you say Joseph seemed to be younger so may be she altered her birth
And yes she married Sydney Jones and that 1939 census is her she lived there until she died in 1966, I was only young so I didn't know her birth date.

And more bad news I sent for the birth for John 1882 Catherines brother just got it and it's not him his mother is Agnes Kelly,

I was brought up thinking Catherine was born in Co. Mayo but the censuses say Manchester but it makes me think not being able to pin point her birth

is this catherine

1939 Register logo
The National Archives logo
Catherine Jones's life in 1939
58 Panfield Road, Manchester, Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Sidney Jones 31 Jul 1887 Male Painter & Decorator Married 161 1
Catherine Jones 28 Jul 1886 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 161 2

Catherine
Last name Turner
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1920
Registration month -
Sidney Jones
Spouse's last name Jones
District Chorlton

Another different birth year - and younger husband

1939

Name: Catherine Jones
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 28/07/1886 (28 Jul 1886)
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 58
Residence Place: Manchester Lancashire England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number: 33
Schedule Number: 161
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: NJFA
Borough: Manchester
Registration district: 464-1
Inferred Spouse:
Sidney Jones Birth Date: 31/07/1887 (31 Jul 1887)


JONES Sidney KELLY Catherine 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168
JONES Sidney TURNER Catherine 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168
KELLY Catherine JONES Sidney 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168
TURNER Catherine JONES Sidney 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168

Name: Catherine Jones
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 28 Jul 1885*************************************
Residence Place: Chorlton
Relation to Soldier: Widow
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Died Turner J-Turner W
Next of Kin:
Name Relation to Soldier
Joseph Turner
Catherine Jones Widow
Annie Turner Child Birth Date: 14 Feb 1909
Joseph Turner Children Birth Date: 9 Jan 1914
Catherine Schina Children Birth Date: 23 Jan 1917



PRIVATE
JOSEPH TURNER
Service Number: 36348
Regiment & Unit/Ship
Lancashire Fusiliers 9th Bn.
Date of Death04 October 1917
Age 28 years
Buried or commemorated at
TYNE COT MEMORIAL
Panel 54 to 60.
Belgium
Country of Service
United Kingdom
Additional Info
Husband of Catherine Turner, of 10, Rosamond Place, Brook St., Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester.

1911 shows Catherine's birth to be later than you suggest, but she could have been lying as her husband would have been somewhat younger than her.
When did she die?

Name: Catherine Turner
Age in 1911: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 23 Whitfield St C On M Manchester
Marital status: Married
Registration District: Chorlton
Registration District Number: 464
Sub-registration District: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 03
Piece: 23831
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Turner 23
Catherine Turner 23
Annie Turner 2
Martha Turner 5/12
John W Turner 19
Martha Nurstney 19

'Master M' could also be Master Mason.

Sylann

What was the father's occupation said to be on Catherine's marriage cert?

Who were the witnesses?