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All of that is very promising - again I'll print it off and take it from there. I can't thank you both enough - you've been very supportive.

If the 1851 family I posted earlier (at 17:36 ) is the correct one for John 1849 with mother Mary and siblings Elizabeth, Margaret, and Hannah, then the mother Mary seems to be in the workhouse in Blackburn 1841, with children Elizabeth (1) and James (2).

I don't see an illegitimate birth for James c1839.

BUT . . .

There is a Hartley/Spencer family in Haslingden, with children of the same names and similar YOB's


The John with mms Spencer is one of them (birth posted already)

Siblings:

HARTLEY, ELIZABETH mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 447

HARTLEY, JAMES mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1838 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN UNION Volume 21 Page 400

HARTLEY, NANNY mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1842 J Quarter in HASLINGDON Volume 21 Page 456


HARTLEY, MARGARET mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 452



Mary's marriage ???

Marriages Sep 1840 (>99%)
HARTLEY Richard Haslingden 21 247
SPENCER Mary Haslingden 21 247



HARTLEY, MARY ANN SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1838 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN UNION Volume 21 Page 401
HARTLEY, SARAH ANN SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1840 S Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 381

HARTLEY, ELIZABETH mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1843 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 427

HARTLEY, SUSANNA mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 137


HARTLEY, RICHARD mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 465

(and others)



There's also a family of Hartley/Hindles, below, again with similar names and YOBs:

Mary Hartley
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Mary Hartley
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: 1819
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Haslingden
Civil Parish: Haslingden
Ecclesiastical parish: Haslingden
Town: Haslingden
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Haslingden
Sub-registration district: Haslingden
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 67
Piece: 4141
Folio: 79
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hartley 53
Mary Hartley 52
Elizabeth Hartley 29
Mary J Hartley 22
Alice Hartley 20
John Hartley 18
Susannah Hartley 17
Ellen Hartley 15
James Hartley 10
Thomas Hartley 7

I won't post all the Hartley/Hindle births - I've found them, but my brain's frazzled!

All too confusing!

1851

York, Oswaldtwistle, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Ralph Hartley Head Married Male 35 1816 Coal Miner Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England
Betty Hartley Wife Married Female 35 1816 - Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England
John Watson Lodger Unmarried Male 19 1832 Coal Miner Darwen, Lancashire, England
John Taylor Lodger Unmarried Male 29 1822 Coal Miner Shuttleworth, Lancashire, England
Richard Taylor Lodger Unmarried Male 15 1836 Coal Drawer Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England

?? for Ralph

Marriage: 23 May 1836 St James, Church Kirk, Lancashire, England
Ralph Hartley - (X), this Parish
Betty Grimshaw - (X), this Parish
Witness: Joseph Monson; George Rushton, (X)
Married by Banns by: W K Tatam
Register: Marriages 1830 - 1837, Page 124, Entry 372
Source: LDS Film 1470823

I forgot to say, yes, it is the exact birth details I have.

1881 John Hartley - mother Mary Hartley formerly Buckley - 28 King Street, Longton.

I'll print the other information off and hopefully one of them will tie in with the other information I have. Thank you.

IF he was born in Haslingden, this MIGHT be him in 1851:

John Hartley
in the 1851 England Census
Name: John Hartley
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Mary Hartley
Gender: Male
Where born: Haslingden, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Haslingden
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
Town: Haslingden
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration district: Haslingden
Sub-registration district: Haslingden
ED, institution, or vessel: 1e
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 56
Piece: 2250
Folio: 92
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Hartley 44 - married [untrue], Accrington
Elizabeth Hartley 11
Hannah Hartley 9
Margaret Hartley 7
John Hartley 2


And if so, then his birth is the illegitimate one posted above.

His sisters' births:

HARTLEY, HANNAH -
GRO Reference: 1842 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 449


HARTLEY, MARGARET -
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 474

HARTLEY, ELIZABETH -
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 455

The birth of John snr may not, of course, have been registered.

Maddie has given you the possible baptism of the FATHER of John 1881 - not of John 1881 himself. .

As the baptism was on 1st Jan 1851, one of these will (probably) be the birth of that child (who may or may not be the right John) - IF he was born in Oswaldtwistle:

HARTLEY, JOHN mms TURNER
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 21 Page 32

HARTLEY, JOHN mms SCHOLES
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 21 Page 87

If the baptism is the correct one, his parents are John and Margaret.

Therefore Ralph is not his father. If he was, John would be listed as "son" and not "lodger".

Ralph might be an uncle or other relative.


EDIT:

Actually, these births below are also possibilities.
1891 census gives his YOB as c1851, but 1861 and 1881 say c1849.

HARTLEY, JOHN mms BURTON
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 21 Page 17

HARTLEY, JOHN mms ASPDEN
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 21 Page 82


I don't see the marriage of a John Hartley to a Margaret with any of those four surnames.


But if he was born in Haslingden, then there are these possible births:

HARTLEY, JOHN mms SPENCER
GRO Reference: 1848 D Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 409

HARTLEY, JOHN -
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 516

HARTLEY, JOHN mms HELLEWELL
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 550


And this one, if the baptism isn't the correct one:

HARTLEY, JOHN mms HEYWORTH
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 21 Page 558

You must work on facts, maryann

Don't guess, or speculate

Is this the birth for which you have the cert?

HARTLEY, JOHN BUCKLEY
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 278

What - exactly - does it say about the mother?

I've printed the information off you have given me, I will have a look online to see what I can find out. Thanks again.

That's interesting - I have just looked on 1881 John's birth cert. and you are right, he was born Longton, Staffs (thank you).
So, if his father is also a John and his mother Margaret , is it possible for me to find a baptism cert. for 1851 John? also with the other members of the Hartley family does that mean Ralph Hartley is the father of 1851 John do you think.
Thank you for your help.

???? father
John
Last name Hartley
Gender Male
Birth year -
Birth place -
Baptism year 1851
Baptism date 01 Jan 1851
Residence Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England
Place Oswaldtwistle
County Lancashire
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Hartley
Mother's first name(s) Margaret
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

York, Oswaldtwistle, Blackburn, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ralph Hartley Head Married Male 45 1816 Coal Miner Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England
Betty Hartley Wife Married Female 45 1816 - Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England
James Hartley Lodger Unmarried Male 18 1843 Coal Miner Lancashire, England
Thomas Baldwin Lodger Unmarried Male 15 1846 Coal Miner Accrington, Lancashire, England
John Hartley Lodger Unmarried Male 12 1849 Coal Miner Haslingden, Lancashire, England
Country England

After much searching, I don't see any sign of Ellen's birth record.

The birthplaces given in 1891 aren't entirely accurate.
It says John junior was born in Longton, Lancs, whereas he was actually born in Longton, Staffs, as stated on the 1881 census, and borne out by his birth reg.

John senior was born in Oswaldtwistle according to 1891 census - but 1881 says he was born in Heslington, Lancs. This is probably wrong too - I think it should be Haslingden, Yorkshire, which is about 6 miles away from Oswaldtwistle.


John Hartley
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Hartley
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Mary Hartley
Gender: Male
Where born: Heslington, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Stoke Upon Trent
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Street address: 28 King Street
Marital status: Married
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Bricklayers Labourer
Registration district: Stoke Upon Trent
Sub registration district: Longton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors:
Piece: 2734
Folio: 36
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hartley 32 - bricklayers labourer
Mary Hartley 30 - Ireland
John Hartley - under 1 month, Longton, Staffs.
Alfred Kettle 38 - lodger

I have Hanna, Mary Jane, John, Ralph 1893 (my Grandad) I have sent for William (which you kindly gave me the details) and I only have 1885 Ellen to find.

Many thanks to you.

OK, so this is your family in 1891:


William Hartley
in the 1891 England Census
Name: William Hartley
Gender: Male
Age: 10
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1881
Father: John Hartley
Mother: Mary Hartley
Birth Place: Hull, Yorkshire, England <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Oswaldtwistle
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Residence Place: Oswaldtwistle, Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England
Registration district: Blackburn
Sub registration district: Oswaldtwistle
ED, Institution or Vessel: 5
Neighbors:
Piece: 3409
Folio: 94
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hartley 40 - Oswaldtwistle
Mary Hartley 35 - Ireland
John Hartley 10 - Longton, Lancs
Annie Hartley 8 - Rotherham
Ellen Hartley 6 - Hull
William Hartley 10
Mary Jane Hartley 1/12 - Oswaldtwistle
Margt Ann Spence 33 - boarder


As William is listed after Ellen, he must be younger than her.
The supposed age of 10 has been added by someone later, so the 1889 birth MAY be the correct one.


HARTLEY, MARY JANE mms BUCKLEY
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 08E Page 460

HARTLEY, JOHN mms BUCKLEY
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 278

HARTLEY, HANNAH mms BUCKLEY
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 622


As Mary was born in Ireland, maybe they married there.

The 1911 census says she was born in Cork.

My informant gave me similar information as ArgyllGranI but not as much information. John/William would have been my Grandfathers brothers. I have looked on Ancestry, FMP, Familysearch with no luck, my search was in was in 2018, I have John's birth cert. and have tried for ages to find William's but cannot find it anywhere which is why I was unsure if he was a twin. Having said that on the 1891 census I have both William and John with siblings, their age is 10. I have been unable to trace a marriage cert. For John and Mary so I assumed they never married.I have also been searching another branch of my family.
I am sending off for the Last information with GRO details from ArgyllGran as with the MMN being Buckley it must be my William 1889 not 1881.

Thank you so much, I may be getting somewhere with this now.
Sorry, as you can gather I am not very good at this.


.

The Creston death - not born 1881:

William Hartley
in the Canada, Find A Grave Index, 1600s-Current
Name: William Hartley
Birth Date: 9 May 1889
Birth Place: Huddersfield, Metropolitan Borough of Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England
Death Date: 21 Jan 1970
Death Place: Creston, Central Kootenay Regional District, British Columbia, Canada
Cemetery: Forest Lawn Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Creston, Central Kootenay Regional District, British Columbia, Canada

Bio supplied by someone on Findagrave, not necessarily correct:

Father - John Hartley
Mother - Mary Buckley
Spouse - Waka Nishimoto


Takenaka “Waka” Nishimoto Hartley
Birth 26 Jul 1881
Hiroshima, Hiroshima-shi, Hiroshima, Japan
Death 17 Apr 1970 (aged 88)
Nelson, Central Kootenay Regional District, British Columbia, Canada
Burial
Forest Lawn Cemetery
Creston, Central Kootenay Regional District, British Columbia, Canada


There's no such birth in 1889 in Huddersfield.

However, there is this one, who may be a completely different person:

HARTLEY, WILLIAM mms BUCKLEY
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in HULL Volume 09D Page 303

Hull is not Huddersfield.

Which bit of what you've been told by your FMP informant definitely relates to the man in your tree? and who is that man?

Perhaps whoever found the info for you assumed he was this man ?
Or perhaps this man is the one in your tree?

William Hartley
in the 1911 England Census
Name: William Hartley
Age in 1911: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1881
Relation to Head: Brother-in-law
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Oswaldtwistle
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 8 Higher Heys Oswaldtwistle
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Labourer In Cotton Mill
Registration district: Blackburn
Registration District Number: 474
Sub-registration district: Oswaldtwistle
ED, institution, or vessel: 07
Piece: 25127
Household Members:
Name Age
Benjaman Granshaw 45 - single
William Hartley 30 - married, brother-in-law, married under 1 year
J E Hartley 30 - sister


Marriages Jun 1910 (>99%)
GRUNSHAW Jane Ellen Blackburn 8e 949
HARTLEY William Blackburn 8e 949


His parents were Richard and Catherine per earlier censuses.

The only birth of a male Hartley with MMN Buckley in 1881+/- 1 year is for JOHN Hartley in Stoke on Trent area.

No marriage on freebmd for John Hartley to Mary Buckley

Please check your info