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Thirza passed away 64 Marion St, Birkenhead - 270818. I had her born Wiltshire but Rambling s info looks correct - born Fenton.

Thanks Chris, amazing research

So Thirza not with William 1901...below could be her Death...

Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1918
HILL Thirza 67 Birkenhead Wirral BIR/156/96

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Deaths Sep 1918 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Hill Thirza 67 Birkenhead 8a 516

Chris :)

Great research Chris,

George Hill and Gertrude Turner are the witnesses on his brother William Percy Hill's marriage to Hannah Pope, father William 'Engine Tenter'

Image on FMP 1893

Gertrude Turner looks like a good possibility, Chris.
You've done a lot of delving there!

The fact that Gertrude is a widow by 1911 would also fit with the possible 1905 death of George, as would the children's years of birth.

Another child who died:

HILL, DORIS mms TURNER
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in STOKE-UPON-TRENT Volume 06B Page 199

HILL, DORIS 0
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in STOKE-UPON-TRENT Volume 06B Page 122

Just for ref brother and mother Thirza 1911

18 Bentinck Place Birkenhead, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England


Thirza Hill Head Widow Female 60 1851 - Staff Fenton
William Percy Hill Son Married Male 38 1873 Gas Engineer Hanley Staff
Hannah Hill Wife Married Female 38 1873 - Hanley Staff
Alice Hill Daughter - Female 13 1898 - Hanley Staff
Florence May Hill Daughter - Female 8 1903 - Stoke on Trent

What about below?...(the Marriage image FMP, 9th August, George 23, Bachelor, 106, Well Street, Father William Hill, occ. Engineer. Gertrude, 23, Spinster, 106, Well Street, Father, Alfred Turner (Deceased) occ. Potters Turner. a witness Fred Hill)


Staffordshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1898
HILL George TURNER Gertrude Wellington, St Luke Stoke-On-Trent 36/07/038.

Marriages Sep 1898 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
Hill George Stoke T. 6b 413
Turner Gertrude Stoke T 6b 413


http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(check above for Births Hill, Maiden Name Turner)


1901 (Residence, 1898 Marriage)
William Hill Head Widower Male 50 1851 Engimeer On Tile Works Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Fred Hill Son Single Male 25 1876 App Potter's Placer Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Private House, 106, Well Street, Hanley, Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire & Worcestershire


1911
Arthur Poole Head Married Male 50 1861 Potters Gilder Stoke Staffordshire
Selina Poole Wife Married Female 58 1853 - Longton Staffordshire
Gertrude Hill Daughter Widow Female 36 1875 At Home Hanley Staffordshire
Harold Hill Grandson - Male 11 1900 School Hanley Staffordshire
Ernest Hill Grandson - Male 9 1902 School Hanley Staffordshire
Florence Hill Granddaug - Female 8 1903 School Hanley Staffordshire
Gladys Poole Grandchild - Female 6 1905 School Hanley Staffordshire
4 Harcourt St Hanley Stoke on Trent, Hanley, Staffordshire & Worcestershire

(notes another witness on that 1898 Marriage, was a Florrie Poole)

(says Married 12yrs, 4 children born, 1 died. Gertrude signature)


1901
Arthur Poole Head Married Male 40 1861 Potters Gilder Stoke, Staffordshire, England
Selina Poole Wife Married Female 51 1850 - Longton, Staffordshire, England
Florence Poole Daughter Single Female 15 1886 Potters Gilder Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Gertrude Hill Daughter Married Female 26 1875 - Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Harold Hill Grand Son - Male 0 1901 - Hanley, Staffordshire, England
19, Harcourt Street, Hanley, Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire & Worcestershire


1891 (Reference)
William Hill Head Married Male 40 1851 Stationary Engine Driver Staffordshire, England
Thirza Hill Wife Married Female 40 1851 - Staffordshire, England
William P Hill Son Single Male 18 1873 Waggoner In Mine Staffordshire, England
George Hill Son Single Male 16 1875 Waggoner In Mine Staffordshire, England
Fred Hill Son - Male 13 1878 - Staffordshire, England
Bertram Hill Son - Male 6 1885 Scholar Staffordshire, England

(not sure of occupation, George, 1898 Marriage, Till Sayer?)


Baptism
County Staffordshire
Place Shelton
Church name St Mark
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 366
Baptism date 17 May 1882
Person forename Gertrude
Person sex
Father forename Alfred
Mother forename Selina
Father surname TURNER
Person abode Vine St
Father occupation Potter, deceased
Notes Baptism date is the date 'Received into Church'

https://www.freereg.org.uk/


Marriages Mar 1871 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
Bettany Selina Stoke T. 6b 242
TURNER Alfred Stoke T. 6b 242

Staffordshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1871
TURNER Alfred BETTANY Selina Shelton, St Mark Stoke-On-Trent 27/06/079.


Staffordshire Birth indexes for the years: 1874
TURNER Gertrude BETTANY Shelton Stoke-On-Trent SHE/052/063

Birth
TURNER, GERTRUDE BETTANY
GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 230


1881
Selina Turner Head Widow Female 30 1851 Pott Lathe Treader Longton, Staffordshire, England
Gertrude Turner Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Hanley, Staffordshire, England
William Emery Boarder Single Male 27 1854 Potters Guilder Hanley, Staffordshire, England
37, Vine Street, Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire

1891
Arthur Poole Head Married Male 29 1862 Potters Gilder Staffordshire, England
Selina Poole Wife Married Female 39 1852 Potters Lathe Treader Staffordshire, England
Gertrude Turner Stepdaughter Single Female 17 1874 Potters Paintress Staffordshire, England
Florence Poole Daughter - Female 6 1885 Scholar Staffordshire, England
Lichfield Street, Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire

Thirty-nine George Hills with no middle initial died in WW1.
Also about 27 G Hills with no middle initial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead

Many of the records don't give any age or NOK info, so it's impossible to know who they might be.

But can't see him in 1911, in any case.

Yes researching George Hill, b1875, Fenton, Hanley. Son of Thirza and William.

I Thought that the 1911 census where it shows him with wife Lily and son William looked spot on as the area and ages matched those of the 1871 census when George was 3 yrs old at 7 Nelson place.

I will purchase the below certificate as you uncovered to see if I have a match.
Deaths Jun 1905 (>99%)
Hill George 30 Stoke T. 6b 101

I wondered if he died in action?

Many thanks for your help.

Can you clarify definitely , please - which George is the one you're researching?

If it's George, the son of William and Thirza that you're interested in, Martin, I believe that's his 1905 death I've posted. (Though of course you'd have to see the certificate to be sure.)

There's certainly no sign of him on censuses after 1901.

He's the George with brothers William P, Fred, and Bertram.

I said Lily was a red herring because she's with a completely different George Hill - ie - George Thomas Hill, son of Alfred and Matilda - and therefore not relevant to your search.

Yes William P, Frederick and Bertram are Georges brothers

So you are following below George...

Chris :)

(posted earlier)

Marriages Dec 1895 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Hammonds Mary Ann Stoke T. 6b 341
Hill George Thomas Stoke T. 6b 341


(Marriage image, Fenton, for above on FMP. George, 20 Bachelor, occ. Potter, 99,
Raglan Street, Father, Alfred, occ. Potter. Mary Ann 21, Spinster, 2, Nelson Sreet, Father, William Hill (Deceased) occ. Miner. Wits. Samuel Hammond, Emily Hammond)


Baptism
County Staffordshire
Place Stoke-upon-Trent
Church name St Peter ad Vincula
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 1432
Birth date 19 Mar 1875
Baptism date 04 Apr 1875
Person forename George Thomas
Person sex M
Father forename Alfred
Mother forename Matilda
Father surname HILL
Person abode Heron Cross
Father occupation Thrower


Staffordshire Birth indexes for the years: 1897
HILL William Henry HAMMONDS Fenton Stoke-On-Trent FEN/053/030


Who, or how, are you linking to George 1911?...(you stated below earlier)

Confirmation that George Hill - parents are definitely William Hill and Thirza Newman.

(I posted below earlier)

Baptism
County Staffordshire
Place Shelton
Church name St Mark
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 501
Baptism date 21 Nov 1877
Person forename George
Father forename William
Mother forename Thirza
Father surname HILL
Person abode 29 Broom St, Hanley
Father occupation Engineer

(also relating)

Frederick HILL Baptism 21 Nov 1877 Staffordshire Shelton : St Mark : Parish Register

William Neroman HILL Baptism 26 Feb 1870 Staffordshire Hanley : St Luke : Parish Register

William Percy HILL Baptism 19 Jan 1873 Staffordshire Shelton : St Mark : Parish Register

Staffordshire Birth indexes for the years: 1873
HILL William Percy NEWMAN Shelton Stoke-On-Trent SHE/050/006


https://www.freereg.org.uk/

http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk/

(Find My Past, Genes, have a lot of Staffs. Records also)

Thanks guys for your help. its all very confusing.

Yes I can now see that william Hill was 14 on the 1911 census and not 3 as I had thought.

The dates do match up that this George is the correct one at 106 Raglan St.

ArgyllGran - you said Lily is a red herring. I only have access to the records on this site and I am unable to find a marriage certificate between George and Lily.

:-(

Possible death of Martin's George ??

Deaths Jun 1905 (>99%)
Hill George 30 Stoke T. 6b 101

Just to recap -

Martin's George is the one born in Hanley, son of William Hill and Thirza Newman.
So far, I don't see him after 1901.

Apparently Martin can't either, which is why he has hoped that the George who is with Lily in 1911 is his man.

I am convinced that 1911 George is George Thomas Hill, chip shop owner, born in Fenton, son of Alfred and Matilda, husband of Mary Ann Hammonds.

Lily, whoever she is, is a red herring.

No time to research further, but there is below...(if William 1911)

Chris :)

https://www.wrecksite.eu/peopleView.aspx?35527

(William Henry Hill)


(from image on below FMP, says Born 29th May 1896 Stoke on Trent, occ. Steam Hammer Driver)

British Royal Navy Seamen 1899-1924


(and below, for reference William and Thirza)

County Staffordshire
Place Shelton
Church name St Mark
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 501
Baptism date 21 Nov 1877
Person forename George
Father forename William
Mother forename Thirza
Father surname HILL
Person abode 29 Broom St, Hanley
Father occupation Engineer

(also relating)

Frederick HILL Baptism 21 Nov 1877 Staffordshire Shelton : St Mark : Parish Register

William Percy HILL Baptism 19 Jan 1873 Staffordshire Shelton : St Mark : Parish Register

Staffordshire Birth indexes for the years: 1873
HILL William Percy NEWMAN Shelton Stoke-On-Trent SHE/050/006


Staffordshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1870
NEWMAN Thyrza HILL William Shelton, St Mark Stoke-On-Trent 27/06/076.

Below is Burial for 1899...

Chris :)

County Staffordshire
Place Fenton
Church name Cemetery
Register type Other Register
Register entry number 4128
Burial date 25 Feb 1899
Burial person forename Mary Ann
Relationship wife of
Male relative forename George Thomas
Relative surname HILL
Burial person surname HILL
Person age 24
Burial person abode 79 High St

https://www.freereg.org.uk/

(from above, another can be useful Staffs is below)

http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Marriages Dec 1895 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Hammonds Mary Ann Stoke T. 6b 341
Hill George Thomas Stoke T. 6b 341


(Marriage image, Fenton, for above on FMP. George, 20 Bachelor, occ. Potter, 99, Raglan Street, Father, Alfred, occ. Potter. Mary Ann 21, Spinster, 2, Nelson Sreet, Father, William Hill (Deceased) occ. Miner. Wits. Samuel Hammond, Emily Hammond)


Staffordshire Birth indexes for the years: 1897
HILL William Henry HAMMONDS Fenton Stoke-On-Trent FEN/053/030


(if below)

County Staffordshire
Place Stoke-upon-Trent
Church name St Peter ad Vincula
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 1432
Birth date 19 Mar 1875
Baptism date 04 Apr 1875
Person forename George Thomas
Person sex M
Father forename Alfred
Mother forename Matilda
Father surname HILL
Person abode Heron Cross
Father occupation Thrower


Marriages Dec 1870 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
COOPER Matilda Stoke T. 6b 277
HILL Alfred Stoke T. 6b 277


Staffordshire Birth indexes for the years: 1875
Hill George Thomas COOPER Fenton Stoke-On-Trent FEN/025/027


(below, if relating to George and Business, as 1911 Census)

07 March 1908 - Staffordshire Sentinel - Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire,

BUSINESSES AND PREMISES.
FISH and Chip Business For Disposal; good position. —Apply, 106. Raglan-st., Fenton.


22 August 1913 - Staffordshire Sentinel - Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire,

Businesses and Premises.
FISH and Chip Shop, 106. Raglan.street, Fenton. fixtures cheap. - Apply. .41, Spring Rd., Normacot.

Thirza in 1881

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
10, Stanley Terrace Bridge Road, Wavertree, West Derby, Lancashire, England

William Charlwood Head Married Male 42 1839 Cab Owner Cab Proprietor Essex, England
Sarah Jane Charlwood Wife Married Female 33 1848 - Stafford, Staffordshire, England
William Percy Hill Adopted Son Single Male 8 1873 Scholar Stafford, Staffordshire, England
George Hill Brother In Law Single Male 13 1868 Scholar Stafford, Staffordshire, England
Thirza Hill Sister In Law Married Female 30 1851 - Stafford, Staffordshire, England
Frederic Hill Nephew Single Male 3 1878 - Stafford, Staffordshire, England
Charlwood Hill Nephew Single Male 0 1881 - Stafford, Staffordshire, England

for ref HILL, CHARLWOOD mmn NEWMAN
GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 221

Going back to Mary Ann Hill, nee Hammonds -

Maybe she died and then her husband took up with Lily Somebody ??

Deaths Mar 1899 (>99%)
Hill Mary Ann 24 Stoke T. 6b 166

An 1899 death would explain why I can't find her in 1901. (Though wouldn't explain the stated 15 years of marriage for George and Lily - and still can't find Fenton George in 1901.)



However, I think that 1911 with George and Lily is a red herring - I don't think that's your Hanley George.

This looks like your Hanley George in 1901 - if so, he's not the one who'd been married for 15 years to Lily by 1911:

George Hill
in the 1901 England Census
Name: George Hill
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relation to Head: Visitor
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Civil Parish: Wednesfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Wednesfield St Thomas
Town: Wednesfield
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wolverhampton
Sub-registration district: Willenhall
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors:
Piece: 2687
Folio: 85
Page Number: 32
Household schedule number: 188
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Hill 29
Annie Hill 27
Alfred Hill 1
George Hill 25 - single, Minton tile fixer, slater.

Or have you found your George somewhere else in 1901?

Just to go back a bit

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Nelson Place, Hanley, Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire & Worcestershire, England

George Hill Head - Male 46 1825 - Staffordshire, England
Ann Hill Wife - Female 45 1826 - Staffordshire, England
William Hill Son - Male 20 1851 - Staffordshire, England <<<<
Thirza Hill Daughter-In-Law - Female 20 1851 - Lancashire, England <<<<<<<
Martha Hill Daughter - Female 15 1856 - Staffordshire, England
Alice Hill Daughter - Female - - - Staffordshire, England
Eliza Hill Daughter - Female 9 1862 - Staffordshire, England
Emily Hill Daughter - Female 6 1865 - Staffordshire, England
George Hill Son - Male 3 1868 - Staffordshire, England

Then in 1881

7, Nelson Place, Stoke upon Trent, Staffordshire, England


George Hill Head Married Male 56 1825 Engine Tenter Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Ann Hill Wife Married Female 55 1826 - Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England
William Hill Son Married Male 30 1851 Engine Tenter Hanley, Staffordshire, England <<<<
George Hill Grand Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Hanley, Staffordshire, England <<<<<<
Sarah Ann Oakley Lodger Single Female 17 1864 Potter Stoke on Trent, Staffordshire, England