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Where would I find a birth certificate being Samuel was born in India in 1883.
Would he be listed as a British Subject.
really have come up against a brick wall.

Nothing showing in British India Office Births & Baptisms ( on FMP) for name variants unfortunately.

I wonder if this is mother Mary's death? it is a different spelling of name, but gives an idea of birth year.


First name(s) MARY A
Last name GORVIN
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1851
Age 86
Death quarter 3
Death year 1937
District Dartford
County Kent
Volume 2A
Page 757
Country England



Mary Ann Gorvin
BIRTH 1851
DEATH 31 Jul 1937 (aged 85–86)
BURIAL
Erith Cemetery
Erith, London Borough of Bexley, Greater London, England
PLOT E.154
MEMORIAL ID 196490873 · View Source

Oh hold on just noticed something there is a marriage for

First name(s) MARY ELLEN
Last name GORVIN
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1898
Registration month -
MarriageFinder ™

MARY ELLEN GORVIN married one of these people

Albert Wooding

District Dartford
District number -
County Kent
Country England
Volume 2A
Volume as transcribed 2A
Page number 1029


On one of the service records for Samuel it gives mention of C/o Mrs Wooding , Longfield Hill , I think regarding payment of pension, though it is later crossed through,

This is that Mary, I wonder if by chance she is Samuel's sister?

Mary Wooding's life in 1939
1 Uphill Cott Lfield Hill, Dartford R.D., Kent, England

Wooding household
(3 people)

Albert Wooding 1878 24 Mar 1878 Male Horseman On Farm Heavy Work Married 60 1
Mary Wooding 1878 05 Aug 1878 Female Unpaid Domestic Dut Married 60 2
Alfred J Wooding 1912 05 Jan 1912 Male Farm Labourer Heavy Work Single 60 3

Drat! different father...but I wonder why she was named on Samuel's service record??


Spouse's age 20
Record set Kent Marriages And Banns
First name(s) Mary Ellen
Last name Garvin
Marriage year 1898
Birth year 1878
Marital status Sp
Spouse's first name(s) Albert
Spouse's last name Wooding
County Kent
Country England
Marriage place Southfleet, St Nicholas of Myra
Age 20
Residence Southfleet
Marriage year as transcribed 1898
Marriage date 24 Sep 1898
Church St Nicholas of Myra
Spouse's marital status Ba
Spouse's occupation Labourer
Spouse's residence Southfleet
Father's name(s) Edward Garvin <<<
Father's occupation Deceased
Spouse's father's name(s) Thomas Wooding
Spouse's father's occupation Labourer
By banns or licence -
Witness 1 Edward Peacock
Witness 2 Alice Wooding
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

Just for ref, as I think there must be some connection somewhere

1911 Census For England & Wales
Longfield Hill Longfield Kent, Longfield, Kent, England

Albert Wooding Head Married Male 32 1879 Farm Labourer Ireland Resident
Mary Wooding Wife Married Female 32 1879 - Kent Ash
Edmund Wooding Son Single Male 11 1900 At School Kent Longfield
Albert Wooding Son Single Male 10 1901 At School Kent Longfield
Agnes Wooding Daughter Single Female 7 1904 At School Kent Longfield
Ena Wooding Daughter Single Female 4 1907 - Kent Longfield

Mary Wooding
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Mary Wooding
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Albert Wooding
Birth Place: Longfield, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Longfield
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
Town: Longfield Hill
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Dartford
Sub-registration district: Farningham
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors:
Piece: 710
Folio: 24
Page Number: 3
Household schedule number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Albert Wooding 23
Mary Wooding 22
Edward Wooding 1



Mary E Wooding
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Mary E Wooding
Death Age: 87
Birth Date: abt 1878
Registration Date: Jul 1965
[Aug 1965]
[Sep 1965]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Dartford
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 5f
Page: 301

Births of children - perhaps Edward in 1901 census is Ernest ?? [ EDIT: yes, showing as Edmund in 1911 ]:

WOODING, ALBERT mms GORVIN
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in DARTFORD Volume 02A Page 588

WOODING, ERNEST EDMUND mms GORVIN
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in DARTFORD Volume 02A Page 585

I don't see Mary Ellen's birth in Dartford reg district, and can't see her in censuses before marriage.

Ancestry suggests this birth in Ireland:

Mary Ellen Gorvin
in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Name: Mary Ellen Gorvin
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 28 Aug 1879
Birth Place: Kildare, Ireland
Father: Edward Gorvin
Mother: Mary Pender
FHL Film Number: 256034


But not the same DOB as in 1939.
Could be baptism date, rather than DOB.


EDIT

This is the same birth from irishgenealogy:


SR District/Reg Area - Naas
Birth of MARY GORVIN in 1879
Name MARY GORVIN
Date of Birth 1879
Group Registration ID 10859811
SR District/Reg Area Naas

28 Aug. 1879, Newbridge.
Father: Edward Gorvin, Gunner RA. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mother: Mary Gorvin, formerly Pender.


According to Hart's Army Lists 1879, the 3rd Brigade RA was in Newbridge.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104549282?mode=transcription


Edward Gorvin 4129 Gunner 1880 Royal Artillery
Edward Gorvin 7478 Gunner 1882 Royal Artillery

From www.forces-war-records.co.uk

Good finds ArgyllGran

This Edward was re-engaged in the army in Agra 1884, his marriage to Mary is noted in records, some doubt obv as to surname which shows as Pendergast crossed through and amended to Render...which may be Pender? They married 1876 in Kildare

British Army Service Records

First name(s) Edward
Last name Gorvin
Birth year 1855
Birth parish All Saints
Birth town Newcastle on Tyne
Birth county Northumberland
Birth country England
Service number 8241
Regiment Royal Artillery
Year 1873
Attestation date 31 Jan 1873
Attestation age years 18
Attestation service number 8241
Attestation corps Royal Artillery
Discharge corps Royal Artillery
Document type Attestation
Series Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Archive
The National Archives
Archive reference WO 97
Box 2904
Box record number 128
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & Service Records
Collections from Great Britain, England

father named as Edward.

Children Mary Ellen 29/8/1878
Samuel 30/11/1883 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Francis elizabeth 22/1/1887
Agnes 26/1/1885

He was in India from 23 Dec 1878 to 26 Jan 1888

???

Edward Gorvin
in the Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958
Name: Edward Gorvin
Date of Registration: 1876
Registration district: Kilkenny, Ireland
Volume: 8
Page Number: 373
FHL Film Number: 101252
Records on Page:
Name
Jane Keenan
William Robert Moody
Edward Gorrin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Edward Gorvin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Frances Eliza Remnants
William Woolard
Mary Pendergast <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Alice Shea
Francis James Daly

Of course we don't know if this is anything at all to do with Mary Wooding nee Gorvin!

Edward Gorvin
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Edward Gorvin
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: 1856
Relation: Son
Father's name: Edward Gorvin
Mother's name: Mary Gorvin
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Civil Parish: All Saints
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 3d
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 91
Piece: 3826
Folio: 46
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Gorvin 38
Mary Gorvin 36
Francis Gorvin 10
Edward Gorvin 5
Agnes Gorvin 4
John James Gorvin 11/12
(and several boarders)

GORVIN, EDWARD mms WHITE
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 70


He's not with his father in 1871:

Edward Gervin
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Edward Gervin
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: 1823
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Devon England
Civil Parish: All Saints
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Newcastle upon Tyne
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 77
Piece: 5094
Folio: 43
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Gervin 48 - widower
Agnes Gervin 14
Albena Gervin 9

The daughter Frances Elizabeth, mentioned in the army record posted by Rose:

Frances Elizabeth Gorvin
in the Bexley, Kent, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935
Name: Frances Elizabeth Gorvin
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 19 Oct 1907
Marriage Place: Erith, Kent, England
Chapelry: Christ Church
Parish as it Appears: Erith, Christ Church
Father: James Gorvin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ???? Soldier
Spouse: Walter Frederick Durrant

Was she not sure of her father's name ??


Francis Elizabeth Durrant
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Francis Elizabeth Durrant
Age in 1911: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Luckenon, India <<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Erith
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address: 53 Manor Road, Erith, Kent
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 4
Estimated Marriage Year: 1907
Registration district: Dartford
Registration District Number: 43
Sub-registration district: Erith
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 56
Piece: 3742
Household Members:
Name Age
Walter Frederick Durrant 23
Francis Elizabeth Durrant 24
Eva Katherleen Durrant 2
Walter Frederick John Durrant 1



Frances Elizabeth Gorvin
in the India, Select Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947
Name: Frances Elizabeth Gorvin
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 22 Jan 1887
Baptism Date: 7 Feb 1887
Baptism Age: 0
Baptism Place: Agra, Bengal, India
Father: Edward Gorvin
Mother: Mary
FHL Film Number: 510881


Francis E Durrant
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Francis E Durrant
Gender: Female
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 22 Jan 1887
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 1 Dorothy Terrace Clare Road <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Residence Place: Erith, Kent, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Schedule Number: 162
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: CKAE
Registration district: 43-1
Inferred Spouse: Walter F Durrant
Household Members:
Name
Walter F Durrant
Francis E Durrant
This record is officially closed.


Dorothy Terrace rings a bell - saw that somewhere in relation to Mary Ellen Wooding. Will have a look.

ArgyllGran, are we concluding then that Mary Ellen married Wooding and is Samuel's sister as per the army records. but that neither of them knew their father's name for sure on their marriages? edit meant Frances didn't know name of father...

Looking for death of Edward?

England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007

First name(s) EDWARD
Last name GORVAN
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1821
Age 59
Death quarter 3
Death year 1880
District Newcastle upon Tyne
County Northumberland
Volume 10B
Page 3

England Marriages 1538-1973

First name(s) Edward
Last name Gorvin
Name note -
Marriage year 1845
Marriage date 22 Sep 1845
Marriage place Newcastle upon Tyne
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Gorvin
Spouse's first name(s) Mary
Spouse's last name White
Spouse's father's first name(s) Samuel
Spouse's father's last name White
Residence Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
County Northumberland
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

GORVIN, EDWARD WHITE
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 70

Re Dorothy Terrace:


It must be Frances's mother whom I saw:

Living with Frances and Walter at 1 Dorothy Terrace:

Mary Gorvin
in the Bexley, Kent, England, Electoral Registers, 1734-1965
Name: Mary Gorvin
Residence Year: 1936
Residence Place: Bexley, Kent, England
Parliamentary Division: Erith


Good question, Rose!

Things in favour of that:
Mary Ellen's father is named as Edward on her marriage record.
There's no sign of her in England before her marriage in 1899 (but where was the family in 1891 if Edward left India in 1888 ?)
Even though her birthplace is given as Kent in censuses after her marriage, there's no sign of her birth there.

Things against:
DOB on birth record and army record doesn't match that in 1939.
And basically, there's no definite proof one way or the other!

EDIT:

But of course there's the clincher - the DOB of Edward's son Samuel born India 1883. Samuel is who this thread's about.

Maybe Edward died abroad.

Must have been between 1888 and 1899 if this is the right family.

Re Samuel 1883 -

his marriage cert (1910) gives father's name as Samuel, and Frances's (1907) gives it as James.

But Edward's army record gives their DOBs.

Is it likely that there would be three families of Gorvins (or similar spelling) in the army in India (and specifically Lucknow) , with children of those names born in those years??

On the other hand, Samuel's army record not only mentions Mrs Wooding , but also Mrs Durrant.

His two sisters - so on the whole, despite all the discrepancies, yes, I think that I think Mary Wooding nee Gorvin, is Edward's daughter Mary Ellen born in Ireland

However, it's hard to see why two of the children's marriages give the "wrong" father's name. I could understand one being a mistake - but two?
Frances's mother was still alive when Frances married, so Frances should have known his name.

I can't find them anywhere in 1891 :-| Unless they stayed in India longer?