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Michael

you posted ............

Thanks for that Sylvain - your suggestion re 'as much detail as you can' is rather difficult as the post-page will only accept 500 characters.

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That comment is in the box Researching, which appears on all posts. It is not directed at you, but at anyone who bothers to read it.

What it is meant to convey is that anyone asking a question on a thread should post as much information as they have IF they want us to help. It is most helpful if that information is in their Opening Post.

The comment was posted by me when I was so frustrated by the numbers of people asking for help to find information on "John Smith" or "Frederick Richard St John Smithers" with literally nothing else.

The helpers on here are all simply members helping other members. We don't have magic help, second sight, tarot cards or anything else to help us!!

Names certainly change over time, my gt grandfather's tree is back to 1500s, done as part of a lifetime's 'one name study' by a very dedicated person. But the name changed over the centuries from Murrills to Murrell. with variants in between.

Michael you may get lucky and find a 1831 census that has head of household's full name, rather than just the head count, I have so far found two examples of this in my family, one in Norfolk, one in London area. Always worth a google!

I have got my direct male line confirmed back to 1533 (am now trying to confirm what I have back to 1460. Have found the first use of the Surname in 1324 (in Yorkshire) and trying to find the connection to my part of the family in Lincolnshire.
Yorks were Lords Mayor of York, Earls of Ripon and Lord Grantham. The last of that line was PM in 1827 and died without issue. Funny that Yorks all took titles from Lincs.Viscount Goderich(Herefordshire) of Nocton(Lincs)!! Think he was actually born 10 Downing Street.

Thanks for that Sylvain - your suggestion re 'as much detail as you can' is rather difficult as the post-page will only accept 500 characters.
Re Gentle farmers - they owned the land and paid others to do the work(the farm labourers). I have visited the village seen some of the graves of my ancestors as well as the pub they owned (now a private dwelling). Census is difficult as it wasn't until ? 1841 that names appeared - before that purely a head count.

Harry is a very common alternative name for Henry ...... so a nod to the family Henry


For example, Prince Harry's real name according to his birth certificate and baptism is HENRY, but it was stated verbally by his parents that he was "to be known as Harry".

As for internet records, and even Parish records ................ remember hat most people were illiterate or all but illiterate until close to the end of the 19th century. Even priests could be almost illiterate back in the day.

Names were often spelled as they were heard, and if the person concerned was illiterate, they could not correct any mistakes. That applies to Parish Records as well as censuses, bmds etc.

Then add to that the extra layer that most transcriptions done on the censuses for Ancestry, FMP, etc were actually done by people overseas.

If it comes down to it ......... how well can we ourselves read copperplate handwriting??? I know I have difficulty.


As for errors in names ............. try Hairst, Horst, Hayherst, and Porst. All for the name now spelled as Hayhurst.

Only Porst was a bad transcription of bad handwriting, sorted only by all the family forenames, ages, and birthplaces as well as locality fitting the family that had been "hidden" during years of searching censuses.

Hairst might well be the correct spelling as that was the first spelling I've found for the family, dating back to around 1700.


Even your Gentlemen Farmers being shown in censuses as Farm Labourers ........... the latter could be correct, certainly at one point in time.

Back in the day it was apparently reasonably common for a canny farm labourer to manage to get his freedom from the Lord of the Manor, then to slowly save money to buy a little land. From there it became an easy step to be a Yeoman farmer. Save more money, or go to war and come home with lots of money, and buy a property. If you were lucky you could call yourself a Gentleman Farmer.

I have seen Farm Labourers shown as Gentleman or Gentleman Farmer as the occupation for fathers on marriage certificates ......... no-one had (or has today) to provide evidence of most things they state on a certificate, and occupations were often exaggerated because it looked better for the spouse's parents if they were marrying out of parish and the family status was not known.

Just the same as fathers could be invented for an illegitimate bride or groom.

Our ancestors could lie out of heir back teeth when it really comes down to it!!!!!!


The fun for us is sorting it all out!

The middle name Henry/Harry is likely to come from Lydia's father, Henry.

Michael I think you can safely say Thomas WAS the father, I doubt Eliza's sister would have written to his superiors if there was any doubt about it.

Another example Alexandria married a Castle aka Cresswell - all of my legal documents contain her name as Presswell!!!

There are so many mistakes on the internet! Most of the information I have obtained comes from the original parish records - hand written and held in the local church. Good example - the Rs were publicans (owned a Pub) and Gentleman Farmers(they owned land), but on the internet they are classed as farm labourers!!!

Alexandria Harry was definitely male born 29.05.1916 - yes his 'father' Thomas Henry was in Egypt, hence the name. Quite surprised that it states foot police soldier as I was always told he was in the Cavalry in Eire .Don't know where the name Harry came from, as the names were repeated through the generations.

Great finds, Rose.

That does rather clinch it.

Thomas and family 1911, ( As posted previously by Maddie) ties in with info for father as NOK on service record, also named Thomas though the house number is not the same given as 124 Palmers Rd Southgate ( as of 1915)

1911 Census For England & Wales
12, Southgate, Middlesex, England

Thomas Robinson Head Married Male 38 1873 Hydraulic Engineman Swayfield Lincolnshire
Lydia Robinson Wife Married Female 38 1873 - Woodbridge Suffolk
Ellen May Robinson Daughter Single Female 17 1894 General Servant Domestic New Southgate London N
Thomas Henry Robinson Son Single Male 15 1896 Butchers Shop Assistant New Southgate London N <<<<<<<<<<
Annie Georgina Robinson Daughter Single Female 7 1904 School New Southgate London N
Frederick John Robinson Son Single Male 5 1906 School New Southgate London N
William George Robinson Son Single Male 4 1907 - New Southgate London N

There are some interesting reports there in the images, some a bit faint, but to summarise It seems there was a 'fracas' of some sort in a 'bar' , in which a number of soldiers injured a military policeman, T Robinson who had also transferred to Military Police went to his aid and called for help. and gives a statement of circumstances.

Thomas was demobbed Sept 1919 so ties in with him being home to marry in1920

further to that letter "The father being Pte T Robinson 4th Mounted Brigade, BEF C/o Base Post Office Alexandria , which rather clinches it I think!

"The Mother Miss E Dew" !

Yes it is, they are sisters, so it does look very likely that Thomas was the father.

DEW, ELIZA MANT
GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 410

DEW, JENNIE MARIA MANT
GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 424

1911 Census For England & Wales
26 Crownwell Road, Friern Barnet, Middlesex, England

Walter Knight Head Married Male 50 1861 Foreman Coalporter Islington
Walter Knight Son - Male 26 1885 - Islington
Frederick Knight Son Single Male 19 1892 Coalporter Islington
Louise Knight Daughter Single Female 16 1895 Blacking Factory Islington
Sarah Dew Wife Married Female 48 1863 - St Sea
Solomon Dew Son Single Male 28 1883 Coalporter Islington
Gennie Dew Daughter Single Female 20 1891 Daily Housemaid Islington <<<<<<<<
Eliza Dew Daughter Single Female 18 1893 Daily Housemaid Islington <<<<<<<<<<

There's a letter in a service record for Thomas H Robinson, ( who served in Egypt but was home at potentially the right time) dated July 1916 from a Mrs Young regarding her sister who was ill having given birth to a baby boy on the 28th May ( 2 days out) . Address 36 Cromwell rd, new Southgate.

I am wondering if this is Mrs Young? and is she Eliza's sister

Marriages Jun 1911 (>99%)

DEW Jennie M Barnet 3a 715

Young Harry Barnet 3a 715

The reply to the letter was that she would have to apply for a court order before any stoppages of pay could be enforced. This would imply they were not married?


First name(s) Thomas Henry
Last name Robinson
Age 21
Birth year 1894
Service number 1908
Regiment Military Foot Police
Year 1915
Series WO 363
Series description Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'
Archive
The National Archives
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory First World War
Collections from Great Britain, UK None

Has anyone found a baptism??

The same questions still remain though that the birth certificate may not or cannot answer.