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Hi,

Please could anyone offer any advice on this one?
Fanny or Fannie Smith

What I know for sure -
- Married 15th December 1891 to William Henry Seale. Age listed as 21 - abt 1870,
Living Douglas (Parbold) Father - Thomas Smith Occupation - Possibly says
Trowller?
- Census 1911 - Living at 4 Hart Street Lancashire, Age 40 - abt 1871 birthplace not
listed, Married 19 years - abt 1892 with 5 children and 5 surviving.
- Census 1901 - Living at 4 Hart Street Southport, Age 32 - abt 1869 place of birth
Shropshire Parkgate

I have found 2 possible births one in 1869 Shrewsbury MMN Palmer and one 1870 Church Stretton MMN Bromley.
Looked on Census and option in 1891 in West Derby but living with a step sister surname Stubbs which I haven't been able to trace yet to see if they are connected.
Found both Fanny's from the birth records in 1871 and neither have Thomas as the father
I think I found one in 1891 with a family member listed as stepson and surname stubbs.

My gut tells me the MMN Palmer is probably correct as lots of Fanny and Williams children include the middle name Palmer however I also thought Williams Mother was called Ann Palmer (Just waiting birth certificate at the moment for him) It seems strange they would both have fathers called Thomas and MMN Palmer?!?!

Anyway any help as to where to go that might narrow things down would be fab.
Thanks

Births Mar 1870
Smith Frances Wigan 8c 39

Update -
I have found on 1939 Census in Southport -

With Lillian P Buck born 1910 (Daughter)
Then also listed after her is Elsie and Margaret Parkinson who I know I am related to 100%. This Fanny Seale DOB is 18th Nov(I think) 1870.

Deaths Dec 1956 (>99%)
SEALE Fanny 85 Bradford 2b 71

fmp version
Fannie
Last name Smith
Age 21
Birth year 1870
Marital status Spinster
Residence Douglas (Parbold)
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Smith
Father's occupation Traveller -----------------------
Year 1891
Marriage year 1891
Marriage date 15 Dec 1891
Denomination Church Of England
Place Douglas in Parbold, Christ Church
Diocese Blackburn
County Lancashire
Country England
Spouse's first name(s) William Henry
Spouse's last name Seale
Spouse's age 23
Spouse's birth year 1868
Spouse's marital status Bachelor
Spouse's occupation Pointsman
Spouse's residence Douglas (Parbold)
Spouse's father's first name(s) Thomas
Spouse's father's last name Seale
Spouse's father's occupation Corn Miller
Licence or banns Banns
Witness 1 Gerald James Bold
Witness 2 Hotty Steele
Archive
Lancashire Record Office
Archive reference PR 2982/1/6
Register type Marriages
Register year range 1862-1934

Name: Fanny Seale
Sex: Female
Husband: William Henry Seale
Child: Lilian Palmer Seale
Other information in the record of Lilian Palmer Seale
from England, Lancashire, Parish Registers 1538-1910

Name:
Lilian Palmer Seale
Event Type:
Christening
Event Date:
03 Jul 1910
Event Place:
St Luke's Church, Southport, Lancashire, England
Gender:
Unknown
Father's Name:
William Henry Seale
Mother's Name:
Fanny Seale

Elsie Palmer Seale
View Tree
Sex
Female
Birth
29 March 1901
Southport, Ormskirk, Lancashire 5
Death
3 April 1974
Bradford, City and Borough of Bradford, England, United Kingdom 2
Residence
2 April 1911
4 Hart Street, Southport, Lancashire, England 1
Residence
1901
4 Hart Street, Southport, Lancashire, England 1
PARENTS
Father
William Henry Seale
Mother
Fannie Smith
MARRIAGES (1)
Spouse
4.Walter Parkinson
Marriage
2 July 1923
St Lukes, Southport, Lancaster, Ormskirk, West Lancashire District, Lancashire, England

Births Mar 1896 (>99%)
Seale Bertie Ormskirk 8b 811

Births Dec 1898 (>99%)
Seale William Henry Ormskirk 8b 850

Births Jun 1901 (>99%)
Seale Elsie Palmer Ormskirk 8b 824

SEALE Thomas Alexander Ormskirk 8b 905

Births Jun 1910 (>99%)
SEALE Lilian Palmer Ormskirk 8b 900

william is listed as henry

England and Wales Census, 1911

Name:
Bertie Seale
Event Type:
Census
Event Date:
1911
Event Place:
Southport, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
County:
Lancashire
Parish:
Southport
Sub-District:
North Meols
Sub-District Number:
6
District Number:
457
Enumeration District:
34
Registration District:
Ormskirk
Gender:
Male
Age:
15
Marital Status:
Single
Marital Status:
SINGLE
Occupation:
TRAIN BOOKER
Industry:
L AND Y RY CO
Number in Family:
8
Birth Year (Estimated):
1896
Birthplace:
Southport, Lancashire
Relationship to Head of Household:
Son
Schedule Type:
28
Page Number:
1
Registration Number:
RG14
Piece/Folio:
57
Affiliate Record Identifier:
GBC/1911/RG14/22900/0057/3
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
HARRY Head Male 41 Weobley, Herefordshire
Fannie Seale Wife Female 40
Bertie Seale Son Male 15 Southport, Lancashire
HENRY Son Male 12 Southport, Lancashire
PALMER Daughter Female 10 Southport, Lancashire
ALEXANDER Son Male 7 Southport, Lancashire
PALMER Daughter Female 0 Southport, Lancashire
Alfred Kelsall Boarder Male 32 St Helens, Lancashire
ELLEN Visitor Female 29 Wigan, Lancashire

STUBBS, ELLINOR JANE mms PALMER
GRO Reference: 1862 D Quarter in ATCHAM Volume 06A Page 623

You found her in the 1891 census with Fanny. (Or at least with some Fanny Smith or other!)

Ellinor's parents??

Marriages Dec 1855 (>99%)
PALMER Eliza Atcham 6a 1161
STUBBS Charles Atcham 6a 1161


Charles's death??

STUBBS, CHARLES 45
GRO Reference: 1865 S Quarter in SHREWSBURY Volume 06A Page 425


Eliza's remarriage ( but not to a Thomas ) ????

Marriages Mar 1866 (>99%)
SMITH Henry Shrewsbury 6a 907
STUBBS Eliza Shrewsbury 6a 907

Birth of the Fanny in 1891 with Ellinor:


SMITH, FANNY mms PALMER
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in SHREWSBURY Volume 06A Page 655

If you're following the Palmer idea for mmm

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SMITH, FANNY PALMER
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in SHREWSBURY Volume 06A Page 655

?? then it doesn't fit with the DoB from the 1939 register - year sometimes given wrongly by folks, but usually the day and month correct (original looks like 18 Nov '70)

Fanny (Fannie) Seale's life in 1939
82 Hawkshead Street, Southport C.B., Lancashire, England

Buck household
(5 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Alfred Buck 23 Jul 1906 Male Weighing Machine Repa Married 104 1
Lillian P Farrell (Buck) 01 Jun 1910 Female Unpaid Domestic Duti Married 104 2
The record for this person is officially closed. Can I get around this?
Nicholas Buck 08 Mar 1877 Male Railway Engine Dre Widowed 104 4
Fanny (Fannie) Seale 18 Nov 1870 Female Unpaid Domestic Duti Widowed 104 5
Ref: RG101/4649I/008/35 Letter Code: NQBX
© Findmypast Ltd

? Henry's birth reg - under SCale

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SCALE, WILLIAM HENRY PALMER
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in WEOBLEY Volume 06A Page 489

Fanny and Ellinor and family in 1871 - so doesn't look like your Fanny.:

Fanny Smith
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Fanny Smith
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Henry Smith
Mother's name: Elisa Smith
Gender: Female
Where born: Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: St Julian
Ecclesiastical parish: St Julian
Town: Shrewsbury
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Atcham
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Household schedule number: 196
Piece: 2772
Folio: 43
Page Number: 39
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Smith 41
Elisa Smith 34
Elanor Smith 7
John Smith 13
Philip Smith 10
Herbert Smith 5
Henrietta Smith 3
Fanny Smith 1
Ann Febbire 15 - servant

(Plus several boarders )



Fanny Smith
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Fanny Smith
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: Henry Smith
Mother: Eliza Smith
Gender: Female
Where born: Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Shrewsbury St Chad
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Street address: 26 Frankwell
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Atcham
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors:
Piece: 2653
Folio: 142
Page Number: 48
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Smith 52
Eliza Smith 44
Philip Stubbs 20
Eleanor Stubbs 19
Henrietta Smith 13
Fanny Smith 11
Edith Smith 9
Sarah Smith 5

Record Transcription:
Shropshire Baptisms

First name(s) Fanny
Last name Smith
Birth year -
Baptism year 1870
Baptism date 21 Nov 1870
Denomination Anglican
Place Smethcott
Father's first name(s) Thomas Alexander
Mother's first name(s) Sarah Martha
Mother's last name -
Residence -
County Shropshire
Register type Baptism
Register date range 1813-1876
Archive reference P263/A/2/1
Page 95
Record set Shropshire Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from Great Britain, England

this fanny smith baptised park gate or park sale

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Chapel Street, Weobley, Herefordshire, England


First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Seale Head - Male 45 1826 - Herefordshire, England
Mary A Seale Daughter - Female 21 1850 - Herefordshire, England
Annie E Seale Daughter - Female 7 1864 - Herefordshire, England
William Hy Seale Son - Male 3 1868 - Herefordshire, England
Olive Seale Daughter - Female 0 1871 - Herefordshire, England

Thomas listed as a Widower

Olive's birth not found on GRO to confirm mmn - reported

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1870 (>99%)
SEALE Olive Weobly 6a 505

but here is Annie's

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SEALE, ANNE ELIZABETH PALMER
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in WEOBLEY Volume 06A Page 533

---------------------------------
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Hereford Street, Weobley, Herefordshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Seale Head Married Male 34 1827 Labourer Weobley, Herefordshire, England
Ann Seale Wife Married Female 28 1833 Dressmaker -
Mary Ann Seale Daughter - Female 9 1852 Scholar Weobley, Herefordshire, England


Ann b Presteigne, Radnorshire (otherwise Llanandras) partly in Radnor, partly in Herefordshire

??
Her death - not on GRO - reported
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1870 (>99%)
Seale Ann 38 Leominster 6a 421

-----------------------
??
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1858 (>99%)
ADAMS Ann Leominster 6a 717
Jones John Leominster 6a 717
Palmer Ann Leominster 6a 717
Seale Thomas Leominster 6a 717

The 1870 Shropshire baptism posted by safc looks good.

Marriage of the parents ??

Marriages Jun 1870 (>99%)
BROMLEY Sarah Martha Salford 8d 113
Smith Thomas Alexander Salford 8d 113

So Fanny 's birth:

SMITH, FANNY mms BROMLEY
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in CHURCH STRETTON Volume 06A Page 552

and a sister ??: EDIT: No, not unless born before marriage.

SMITH, ANNA CAROLINE BRANDT mms BROMLEY
GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in CAISTOR Volume 07A Page 598

?? Smethcott is in Church Stretton reg district.


Fanny Smith
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Fanny Smith
Age: 4 Months
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Smethcott, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Smethcott
Town: Picklescott
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Church Stretton
Sub-registration district: Church Stretton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 31
Piece: 2735
Folio: 7
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Brombey 70 - mistranscription of Bromley
Sarah Brombey 69
Edmund Brombey 21
Fanny Smith 4 Months

Sarah Martha's birth:

Births Sep 1846 (>99%)
Bromley Sarah Martha Church Stretton 18 40


and possibly her death ??

Deaths Mar 1891 (>99%)
Smith Sarah Martha 44 Barton I. 8c 453

As Sarah and Thomas married in Salford (if I've posted the right marriage above), this looks like Sarah in 1871 - had she and Thomas separated ?

Picklescott is 3 miles from Church Stretton


Sarah M Smith
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Sarah M Smith
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Pecklescoot, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Pendleton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Lukes Weasle
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration district: Pendleton
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household schedule number: 68
Piece: 4011
Folio: 28
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Emil Reiss 35
Frances Reiss 33
Annie Reiss 8
Henry Reiss 6
Pauline Reiss 3
James A Reiss 4 Months
James A Wilding 30
Mary A Clartle 33
Mary Oaks 28
Mary J Birks 50
Eliza Arthur 32
Elizabeth Stanton 24
Annia Bennett 19
Sarah M Smith 22 - married, wet nurse
Alice Iliffe 18