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Thank you for spending so much time on this for me - I'm even beginning to understand some of what I'm seeing, especially on the records where the writing is neat and clear (and beautiful in its way).

Hallo again Jan
I've had another quick look at that marriage record. It's fascinating but headache-inducing!

I haven't got very far but Johann Georg's father's name, the one that looks like Grimmy, is Heinrich I think. I believe that's what you were hoping it would be. I can sort of follow the letters through and am reasonably confident that is his name. After his name, Heinrich Gobel, there is another word that I think is his address or at least the name of the road. I can't read the name but believe the bit at the end that looks like M or N followed by something and a double f is "strasse" which just means street or road. It looks as though Carolina's parents and Johann's parents lived in the same road.

Under Carolina's date of birth there is a short word that looks as though it starts with f. This word keeps cropping up on that page of the register and I think it may be "hier" which just means here. I think it may be used to mean in this parish.

It's not much but if nothing else it might help to confirm what you already know. Of course, a German speaker with an expert knowledge of old handwriting might come along and tell you that I have got it all wrong which wouldn't surprise me at all. My last German lesson was nearly 60 years ago!

Thank you, very useful

On this site there is a Germanic Alphabet Chart that you can download or print out. It might be helpful in trying to decipher some of the handwriting.

https://www.familytreemagazine.com/premium/germanic-alphabet-chart/

Thank you, Andysmum, that is very helpful and interesting.

Andysmum, I’ll make a note of that website. It might be useful.

The records Jan found for the marriage are from the Lutheran church so are Protestant.

I am sure your German is as good as mine. I am OK with the printed word, it’s the handwriting and abbreviations I am struggling with. I must do some gardening this afternoon while it is dry but I hope to take another look this evening.

I also did German at school, but I don't remember nearly as much as Vera. I have just found this website (link below) and the translated headings for the columns are shown below. There are more columns than on yours, and it is, I think, from a Protestant ceremony. As there are Latin headings on your certificate, were your ancestors Catholic? Some of the names look Latin (Johannes?) so is it possible that the professions are also in Latin?


http://www.stemwedegenealogy.com/marriage_sample.htm


1. Groom's name & his parents names, including where they lived

2. Occupation and residence of Groom

3. Groom's Age and birthdate

4. Whether parental permission was obtained, or not needed

5. Groom's marital status (bachelor or widower)

6. Bride's name

7. Bride's parents and their address

8. Bride's Age & date of birth

9. Whether bride had parental permission

10. Marital Status - unmarried (virgin) or widower (if so, shows previous marriage info)

11. Dates their intentions to marry were announced

12. Pastor & Marriage Date (Kunsemüller)

Thanks very much - I saw the heading Copulation and had a smile at that. Trying to read that writing in a language I don't know makes this research very interesting.

I'll have a look at the profession column, see if I can work out any words and try them on Google translate.

OH left the computer for a few minutes so I got in quick and had a look at that marriage record on Ancestry. I am really struggling with the handwritten stuff as the writing isn't very clear and some of the words are abbreviated, but I can give you an idea of what the different column headings are.

Col 1. Name of groom and bride

Col 2. Seems to cover just about everything! Position, Character, Profession, Religion and there is something about place/locality. Not sure of that bit.

Col 3. Names of parents

Col 4. This covers single, widowed, divorced etc.

Col 5. When and where born

Col 6. Date of permission to marry where this is required. Perhaps this is some sort of licence for minors, or perhaps for divorcees??

Col. 7. This one has thrown me a bit as it is Time and Place of (a) Proclamation and (b) Copulation??? Looking at what is put in the two columns I think it might be something like our reading of the Banns on 3 Sundays.

Col 8. The religion in which the wedding ceremony was performed

Col 9. Dispensation. Sorry I don't know what this is.

Col 10. The page number in the family register.

I can see a few words that recur but I can't make out what they are. I think a couple of the words are the occupations of Johann Georg and his father, and also Carolina's father and I think others are the place or parish of their births but I really am struggling to make out the writing.

Under the heading Proclamations, it says Cantate, Rogate, Exaudi and the name of the place or parish again. This is Latin but I think they are the names given to specific days in the church calendar. Rogate I guess would be what we call Rogation Sunday. This is what makes me think it is something like Banns being called.

Under "Copulation", which really confuses me, I think it says Jun (abbreviation for Juni i.e. June) and the name of Johann Georg's home parish.


Hope this is some help.

In the English side of my family I have many variations in spellings of the same surname, the worst being where Foster was transcribed as Souter. So when here I find Schoch and Schef for what must be the same family, I assume it is a transcription error. But that combined with the old German writing does make it extra hard. I worked out what the y/g meant simply by seeing records where I knew what the maiden name was. Its a good job I enjoy doing word puzzles.

I am just on an iPad at the moment which is a bit limited. I’ll try and look tomorrow when I will be able to use our PC. I do have a sub to Ancestry but not worldwide so I don’t know if it will let me see it

The ‘y’ is a ‘g’ which stands for geboren and you are quite right. It just means ‘born’ , the equivalent of nee.

The old writing is difficult to make out isn’t it? I’ll keep trying but I doubt that I’ll do any better than you.

Sorry to confuse you (join the club) - I added the "male" myself, thinking that's what it said on the record, but double checking it doesn't have the translation, so that was totally my mistake. However, I believe it does refer to the birth of their son - this is the ancestry link if you can access it

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61023/1195603-01103/1211041134?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/87000956/person/320197359398/facts/citation/940416170319/edit/record

Not knowing a word of German is making this doubly difficult for me, I have learned to recognise a few things (such as that "y" = our nee), but not understanding even what the column heading means does make it hard.

Jan, I am now more confused than ever :-S. First, apologies. I hadn’t read your post carefully enough and thought you had found a birth record for Barbara Gobel. However, weiblich is definitely female so who does it refer to? If it’s the gender of the child Johann Georg it should say mannlich (Male).

Very confusing!

Thanks for the correction, Vera - I assumed as it was a record of birth the sex referred to the child.

I do realise that Gobel is a common name, which is why I am trying to be very careful. I knew from his London marriage certificate that my grandfather Karl Johann Wilhelm Gobel's father's name was George - I found a record of his birth in 1844 in Wurttemberg (which tied in with other records which I knew referred to him) with father Johann Georg, mother Caroline Gottliebin Schoch - so I have been trying to work backwards from there. I have found various versions of her surname, which does make things more difficult.

Hi Jan

I was going to ask about dates as well. I did German to A Level at school (many, many moons ago) but am struggling with my eyes and the writing. However , Johann Georg Gobel seems to be quite a common name so make sure you are tracing the right one.

Just a minor correction, in your post of 18.33 you have “gender weiblich (Male)”. Weiblich means female and refers to Barbara Gobel.

Sorry, got to go, dinner’s burning. Will look back later.

Now I've found that their daughter married someone had who died a year previously
:-S

I have just found a birth record for Johann George Gobel, 8 September 1807, parents Heinrich and Barbara Gobel. I'm trying to see if my "Grimmy" could be Heinrich, very difficult though.

Mother's Name Barbara Gobel
Maiden Name Bok
Gender weiblich (male)
Spouse Heinrich Gobel
Child Johann Georg Gobel

Other names on the record are Karoline Gottliebin Schef, Maria Gottliebin Schef and Johann Friedrich Schef, which looks good - I wish I could understand the record though.

Sorry, can't believe I forgot to put dates.

Johann George was born in 1807 Wurttemberg, Caroline in 1811 also Wurttemberg, their marriage was 1835 • Backnang, Murr, Oa u. Sulzbach, Württemberg.

Using mother's name as Lindenmajer, I have found more information on Caroline's side, but unfortunately I still can't go further back on George Gobel's side.

Johann Georg Gobel
Deutschland Geburten und Taufen, 1558-1898
Name: Johann Georg Gobel
Event Date: 1768
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 19 Nov 1768
Birth Year: 1768
Birthplace: Blaufelden
Father's Name: Johann Georg Gobel
Mother's Name: Maria Barbara

what dates have you