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I'm very grateful for MargaretM informing me about the birth of David Edward but I just need to make sure his mother was Charlotte Rees, I have presumed to many times. And then there is Albert Pleasance born in 1906 and with Charlotte in 1911, his father could not have been Pleasance or Knapp, will order that one too.

MargaretM posted David's baptism record on 11 Aug @ 11:44, showing parents as William Wallace Knapp and Charlotte Knapp.

The image of the record shows he's a meat porter, and doesn't say he's deceased.


(Might save you buying the birth cert!)

I have only found out about that birth ( thanks to the kind people on Genes) I will order the birth cert of David Edward Knapp for confirmation of mother being Charlotte Rees and then probably start all over again.

But William is not stated to be deceased on David Edward's baptism record in 1902.

I only have the birth cert of Frederick Robert Knapp born 2.10 am 14th April 1900, which says father is William Wallace Knapp at 71 Warley St, with mother C Knapp formerly Rees

Not sure how your William Wallace Knapp's death could be registered in the third quarter of 1901 but his child was baptised in September 1902 and the father not recorded as deceased.

Funny you should mention that!
I had previously wondered about this family - just as a long shot - because of the name Rosina;


EDIT: But I think it's a red herring.



Rosena Knapp
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Rosena Knapp
Gender: Female
Age: 36
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1855
Spouse: Jacob Knapp
Child: Emma Knapp
Ferdinand Knapp
Sidney Knapp
Walter Knapp
Lorenza Knapp
Birth Place: Camstad, Germany
Civil Parish: Tottenham
Residence Place: Tottenham, Middlesex, England
Sub registration district: Tottenham
ED, Institution or Vessel: 16a
Neighbors:
Piece: 1072
Folio: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Jacob Knapp 45
Rosena Knapp 36
Emma Knapp 14 - born Germany
Ferdinand Knapp 7 - Tottenham
Sidney Knapp 5
Walter Knapp 2
Lorenza Knapp 6/12


Rosine Knapp
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Rosine Knapp
Age in 1911: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Germany
Civil Parish: Chingford
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: Bevarritz House, Ainslie Rd West, Chingford
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 34
Estimated Marriage Year: 1877
Registration district: Epping
Registration District Number: 189
Sub-registration district: Chigwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 421
Piece: 9774
Household Members:
Name Age
Jacob Frederick Knapp 65
Rosine Knapp 55
Walter Leonard Knapp 21 - baker


We can rule out Walter and also Ferdinand, who is a baker in 1911.
Looks like Lorenzo died in infancy:

Knapp Lorens 0 Edmonton 3a 163


I don't see Sidney after 1891, so far.
But he can't be William Wallace either - he would only have been 13 when young Rosina was born.

To be fair she just knew it was surname Knapp, I found the full name but she still insist's he was German.

I know but that's what she has always believed

German? With a middle name of Wallace? Am I missing something?

Thanks all, can now dismiss William W Knapp who was married to Evelyn. Now know that Fred's twin William had the same mother ( Charlotte Rees) and a new child Rosina Phoebe Knapp. So looks like my William Wallace Knapp did die in 1901, that's why Charlotte was living alone in 1901 and 1911. So many questions still.. Where was my Frederick Robert Pleasance(Knapp) in 1911? not with mother and siblings? Where did Albert Pleasance come from born 1906 with mother Charlotte in 1911. Where was William Wallace Knapp? father of Rosina,1898 and William and Frederick 1900. No mention anywhere apart from his likely death in 1901. Spoke to Fred's grand daughter today and she is sure he was German, that would explain his non-existence before his death record and thinks that is the reason Fred later used the surname Pleasance.

Have you found William in any census?

There are various William Knapps, but I can't find one in 1901 or 1890 who is a porter.
Nor is there a birth for him - at least not using the middle name Wallace.

He should have been living in Hackney in 1901 - both Rosina (1898) and David Edward (1902) were baptised there.

Hmm..same family in 1911 so that maybe isn't the right death posted for Thomas?


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
22 St Jude ST, Islington, London & Middlesex, England

Thomas Pleasance Head Married Male 41 1870 London Bethnal Green Printers Warehouseman
Lizzie Pleasance Wife Married Female 39 1872 London Wood Green -
Lilly Pleasance Daughter - Female 11 1900 London Bethnal Green -
Lizzie Pleasance Daughter - Female 8 1903 London Bethnal Green -
Thomas Pleasance Son - Male 10 1901 London Bethnal Green -
George Pleasance Son - Male 5 1906 London Dalston -
Nellie Carner Stepdaughter Single Female 18 1893 London Haggerston Blouse Maker
Reuben Cartier Stepson Single Male 17 1894 London Haggerston Fur Mailer


Married 12 years, 7 children born, 4 living and 3 had died.


She seems to have been free to marry so perhaps it was Thomas who wasn't?

Deaths Mar 1897 (>99%)
CARLIER Reuben 29 Bethnal Green 1c 117

Elizabeth's first marriage

Marriages Dec 1892 (>99%)
Cannon Lizzie Bethnal Green 1c 463
Carlier Reuben Bethnal Green 1c 463

Not seeing her marriage to Thomas.


Elizabeth died in 1918 and Thomas is still living at the same address in 1939 with another wife, Ann.

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Ravenscroft Buildings, 179, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Thomas Pleasance Head Married Male 32 1869 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Printer's Warehouseman
Elizabeth Pleasance Wife Married Female 28 1873 Wood Green, Middlesex, England -
Reuben Pleasance Son - Male 6 1895 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England -
Jane Pleasance Daughter - Female 7 1894 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England -
Lille Pleasance Daughter - Female 0 1901 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England -


Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
PLEASANCE, LILY ELIZABETH CANNON Order
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 134

So John Thomas sometimes used his middle name so the death posted earlier is a possibility?


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Gibraltar Walk, Bethnal Green, London & Middlesex, England

Thomas Pleasance Head Married Male 22 1869 London, Middlesex, England Printers Warehouseman
Charlotte Pleasance Wife Married Female 21 1870 London, Middlesex, England -
Charlotte Pleasance Daughter - Female 3 1888 London, Middlesex, England -
Elizabeth Pleasance Daughter - Female 1 1890 London, Middlesex, England -

In 1911, Charlotte states married 21 years, 8 children born, 3 living and 4 had died.

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
PLEASANCE, CHARLOTTE ELIZA REES Order
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 174

PLEASANCE, ELIZABETH SUSAN REES Order
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 228

PLEASANCE, ANNIE ROSINA REES Order
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 189

PLEASANCE, DAISY EMMA REES Order
GRO Reference: 1896 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 225

????


PLEASANCE, THOMAS WALTER REES Order
GRO Reference: 1894 J Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 543


So either John Thomas died sometime between Daisy's conception and the first Knapp child or John Thomas and Charlotte went their own ways.

I expect you have this, Nicola:

Charlotte Pleasance
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Charlotte Pleasance
Age in 1911: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Bethnal Green
Civil Parish: Shoreditch
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 19 Marlborough Road
Marital Status: Widowed
Years Married: 2
Estimated Marriage Year: 1909
Occupation: BOOT OWNER [ Boot sewer ]
Registration district: Shoreditch
Registration District Number: 16
Sub-registration district: Shoreditch North East
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Piece: 1378
Household Members:
Name Age

Charlotte Pleasance 38
Daisy Pleasance 15
Charlotte Eliza Pleasance 20
Albert Pleasance 5

Rosina's baptism, father a porter, 41 Lee St., birthdate 29 Aug. 1898.


Rosina Phoebe Knapp
in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917
Gender:
Female
Record Type:
Baptism
Baptism Date:
18 Dec 1898
Baptism Place:
Haggerston All Saints, Hackney, England
Father:
Wallace Knapp
Mother:
Charlotte Knapp

That William died 1910.
Probate gives his address as 93 London road, Grays, Essex - same as Evelyn in 1911:

William Wallace Knapp
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966, 1973-1995
Name: William Wallace Knapp
Death Date: 17 Jul 1910
Death Place: Essex, England
Probate Date: 5 Oct 1910
Registry: London, England


Probate to George Lyndon Rhodes, outfitter.


So he's a different William - not the one who died 1901 in Bethnal Green and presumably was Charlotte's partner.

This looks like the William who married in 1889;

William W Knoph
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: William W Knoph
[William W Knapp]
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Evelyn Jane Knoph
Gender: Male
Where born: Exmouth, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Eglwysilan
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin
Town: Hendredenny
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Pontypridd
Sub registration district: Eglwysilan
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors:
Piece: 4410
Folio: 12
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
William W Knoph 23 - bricklayer
Evelyn Jane Knoph 22


In 1901 Evelyn is listed as married - but William's not there:

Evelyn J Knapp
in the 1901 Wales Census
Name: Evelyn J Knapp
Age in 1901: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Exmouth, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Eglwysilan
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Pontypridd
Sub-registration district: Eglwysilan
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 114
Piece: 4999
Folio: 70
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
Evelyn J Knapp 32
Evelyn E Knapp 8
Maud M Knapp 6


By 1911 she's widowed, and living in Essex;

Evelyn Knapp
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Evelyn Knapp
Age in 1911: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Exmouth, Devonshire
Civil Parish: Grays Thurrock
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 93 London Road, Grays
Marital Status: Widowed
Registration district: Orsett
Registration District Number: 192
Sub-registration district: Grays
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Household schedule number: 143
Piece: 9972
Household Members:
Name Age
Evelyn Knapp 42
Evelyn Knapp 18
Maud Knapp 16
Albert Errington 22