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:-D :-D :-D

Thank you ErikaH

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
21, Brynhyfr Yard Row, Town, Rhymney, Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales

James Mann Head Married Male 33 1868 General Labourer Rhymney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Elizabeth Mann Wife Married Female 31 1870 - Rhymney, Monmouthshire, Wales
James Mann Son - Male 15 1886 Coalminer Labourer Below Rhymney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Ellen Mann Daughter - Female 13 1888 - Rhymney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Patrick Mann Son - Male 11 1890 - Pontlottyn, Glamorganshire, Wales
Julia Mann Daughter - Female 3 1898 - Pontlottyn, Glamorganshire, Wales


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Goshen Street, Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales

James Mann Head Married Male 30 1861 Labourer -
Lizzie Mann Wife Married Female 28 1863 - Glamorganshire, Wales
James Mann Son Single Male 5 1886 - -
Ellen Mann Daughter Single Female 3 1888 - -
Patrick Mann Son Single Male 1 1890

Just for my reference, first marriage to Edward Thomas Jenkins (from marriage certificate)
3rd July 1911. Edward was 21, bachelor, Ellen was 24, spinster. Edward living at 14 Union Street, Pontlottyn, and Ellen 16 School Street, Pontlottyn. Ellens father was James Mann and Edwards father was Edward Jenkins.

Certainly looks like it. I am so grateful to you both. I could check that info. my friend would probably know, if not, he will know someone who does.

Andrew's death ??

Andrew O'Keefe
in the UK and Ireland, Find A Grave Index, 1300s-Current
Name: Andrew O'Keefe
Birth Date: 1922
Birth Place: Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
Death Date: 21 feb 1983
Death Place: Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
Cemetery: Pentwyn Cemetery at St Mary's Church
Burial or Cremation Place: Fochriw, Caerphilly, Wales
Has Bio?: Y
Spouse: Violet May O'Keefe


Andrew O'Keefe
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Andrew O'Keefe
Death Age: 60
Birth Date: 12 Aug 1922
Registration Date: Jan 1983
[Feb 1983]
[Mar 1983]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Inferred County: Mid Glamorgan
Volume: 27
Page: 0324


Marriage:

Andrew O'Keefe
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Andrew O'Keefe
Registration Date: Jan 1962
[Feb 1962]
[Mar 1962]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: East Glamorgan
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Spouse: Violet M Harding
Volume Number: 8b
Page Number: 715


violet's death:

Violet May O'Keefe
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Violet May O'Keefe
Death Age: 72
Birth Date: 4 Oct 1913
Registration Date: Nov 1985
Registration district: Pontypool
Inferred County: Gwent
Volume: 28
Page: 919


Mrs Violet May O'Keefe
in the UK and Ireland, Find A Grave Index, 1300s-Current
Name: Mrs Violet May O'Keefe
Birth Date: 4 okt 1913 (4 Oct 1913)
Birth Place: Pontypridd, Rhondda Cynon Taff, Wales
Death Date: okt 1985 (Oct 1985)
Death Place: Pontypool, Torfaen, Wales
Cemetery: Pentwyn Cemetery at St Mary's Church
Burial or Cremation Place: Fochriw, Caerphilly, Wales
Has Bio?: Y
Spouse: Andrew O'Keefe

I cant tell you how grateful I am, my friend lives in the area, he is about 75, he has lived there all his life, he knows everyone and everything, and he is such a wonderful character everyone knows him. When he told me there were 2 brothers I knew that there had to be, but I never thought of them being "younger" thank you for that pointer ErikaH, and AG thank you so much for finding the re marriage and the siblings, I am so pleased about all this.

A possible child born while Ellen was between husbands ???

Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
Mann Elsie M Mann Merthyr T 11a 1724

But possibly not.
Johanna, Andrew and James would be the three closed records in 1939.

A child between her marriages would probably have the surname Jenkins, anyway, even if Edward wasn't the father.




EDIT:

BUT she died in infancy, so wouldn't show up in 1939 in any case:

Elsie M Mann
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Elsie M Mann
Death Age: 0
Birth Date: abt 1919
Registration Date: Oct 1919
[Nov 1919]
[Dec 1919]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 725

And I don't see any Mann/Mann marriage - so maybe Elsie is Ellen's daughter after all ??

Here's Andrew, and also a sister:

Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
O'Keeffe Johanna Mann Merthyr T. 11a 1559


Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
O'Keefe Andrew Mann Merthyr T. 11a 1438

OMG. You have just broken down one of my brick walls.

David was always known as Dai Keefe and no one ever knew why.

AG and Erika, you are wonderful, thank you so much.

Ellen O'Keefe
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Ellen O'Keefe
Death Age: 66
Birth Date: abt 1887
Registration Date: Jan 1953
[Feb 1953]
[Mar 1953]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: east Glamorgan
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 296

As I stated above, ONLY David was recorded on his father's military records

So Edward didn't father any other children with Ellen

Ellen remarried.

Marriages Mar 1920 (>99%)
Jenkins Ellen O'Keefe Bedwellty 11a 216
O'Keefe Patrick Jenkins Bedwellty 11a 216


???
Births Mar 1925 (>99%)
Okeefe James J Mann Merthyr T. 11a 1337


EDIT:
and relating death;

James John O'Keefe
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: James John O'Keefe
Death Age: 65
Birth Date: 8 Feb 1925
Registration Date: Sep 1990
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Inferred County: Mid Glamorgan
Volume: 27
Page: 221




Patrick O'Keefe
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Patrick O'Keefe
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 15 Mar 1870
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 6 King Street
Residence Place: Gelligaer, Glamorganshire, Wales
Occupation: Surface Labourer
Schedule Number: 147
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: XJJB
Registration district: 593-1
Inferred Spouse: Ellen O'Keefe
Household Members:
Name
Patrick O'Keefe
Ellen O'Keefe - 2 June 1887
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
David D Jenkins 16 July 1911 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

David's middle" initial" is "Ll" on the image.


David Llewellyn Jenkins
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: David Llewellyn Jenkins
Death Age: 79
Birth Date: 16 Jul 1911 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration Date: Nov 1990
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Inferred County: Mid Glamorgan
Volume: 27
Page: 24

Yes I did see those Orsett births, ruled them out as I know they all stayed in Wales. I do have the marriage certificate, they married the same year that David was born.

Don't know if the alleged brothers were older or younger. When I was checking I looked at both spellings Man and Mann, but only came up with David.

Maybe they were younger and to another father.

I will find my copy of the marriage certificate, and as you suggest ErikaH will look for Ellen in 1939.

Was hoping this would answer a few questions, maybe it will if I can find her on the 1939, thank you anyway for your help, I think I need to look to see if she re married, and then had more children.

Thank you for looking, and for the suggestions, very much appreciated.

David's father's death

Name: Edward Thomas Jenkins
Residence: Pontygwaith, Glam.
Death Date: 6 Nov 1918
Death Place: Egypt*****************************************************
Enlistment Place: Pentre, Glam.
Rank: Private
Regiment: The Royal Welsh (Welch) Fusiliers
Battalion: 2nd Garrison Battalion
Regimental Number: 243422
Type of Casualty: Died
Theatre of War: Egyptian Theatre
Comments: Formerly 4412, Royal Field Artillery.

To find out factual info relating to Ellen, you'll need her marriage cert.

The marriage was after the date of the 1911 census, so no possibility of discovering her birth year other than by getting the marraige cert.

Once you know when she was born, you can look for her in 1939 and beyond

For our reference (apologies if already posted):

Marriages Sep 1911 (>99%)
Jenkins Edward T Merthyr Tydfil 11a 1287
Mann Ellen Merthyr T. 11a 1287


Did they continue to live in Wales?

There are a number of Jenkins/Mann births, from Sept 1911 onwards, but in Orsett reg district (Essex).

George E 1911, John W 1913, Ada L 1915, Frederick J 1917, Winifred F 1919, Violet O 1921, and another Frederick J 1936.

No Andrew.



EDIT:

NO - looking back through this thread, I see Edward T died in Wales, and so did David - so the Orsett births cant be relevant.

On the register of effects for Edward, dated 1919, ONLY David is mentioned

Ditto the man's service records

Were the alleged brothers supposed to be younger than David?

If so, they could have been born to the mother after David's father died in 1918

I am adding this to this thread because there is a lot of information about this part of my family which has already been researched.

I am stuck again.... Am trying to find any siblings belonging to David Llewellyn Jenkins. Born 16th July 1911. Pontlottyn and died 1 Nov 1990 Bargoed. He is my 1st cousin 2x removed.

His Father Edward T Jenkins 1890-1918 (killed in WW1)
Mother Ellen Mann (or Man) 1883 ???(I think) to ??? (cant verify)

I have looked on Ancestry, FMP,GRO and BMD and cant find any siblings. I have spoken to a friend of the family who thinks there were 2 brothers, one possibly called Andrew. This friend knew David L Jenkins quite well because he worked with him in the coal pits. He told me that he is sure he had 2 brothers who both went their separate ways once they got married.

I am beginning to wonder if they had a different mother or father to D L Jenkins.

Any help would be really appreciated because I have 2 brick walls in this area of the family.

Thank you in advance.

I would be really grateful if you could kindly just check for me to see if he was in fact the only child.