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What a team you make! It does look as though Winnie was indeed Gwenllian and that the daughter called Winnie died at a few months. The school record has the correct father's name and address - I lived just a few doors away from that house when I was young. I suspect David (father) told the school she was called Winnie so they took it to be short for Winifred and wrote that in the book.

The burial of the first Winnie was in Llanwonno which would have the nearest one to where she lived. This was a churchyard but, because Ynysybwl cemetery did not open until nearly 1900, many non-conformists were buried there. My family seems to have taken over a big part of Ynysybwl cemetery. My parents were both from there.

The name Bate didn't ring any bells but I looked at the 1939 address on Google Earth and I have a vivid memory of my father being afraid to park his car on that hill in case it rolled backwards.

I knew Mary had married Morgan Coombes but I had no idea he'd been killed in the pit.

David's and Mary's son, Wyndham, was killed in 1915 at Ypres, just three months after he was married.

My next mission is to look for the graves of these people.I can start with Morgan in Llanfabon.

I'm so grateful to you all. I can see now I was approaching it in a very blinkered fashion. Thank you, everyone.

Annie

Wow! Thank you all so much for all this. I've been unable to come back to it until now but I'm going to go through it all in detail this afternoon. I'm very grateful.

Annie

(nice one Andy!)

Chris :)

(still wondering if below was their daughter born earlier?)

Birth
EDWARDS, WINIFRED (JONES)
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 350


Death
EDWARDS, WINIFRED (0)
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 224


Burial
County Glamorgan
Place Llanwonno
Church name St Gwynno
Register type Parish Register
Burial date 03 Nov 1883
Person age 8d
Burial person forename Winifred
Burial person surname EDWARDS
Burial person abode Blaenllechau


http://newspapers.library.wales/

(Morgan Coombs, articles Colliery Explosion above)


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=127417.0

(also mentioned on above)

I wondered if her name was abbreviated to Gwen or Gwennie which then became Winnie and whoever filled in the 1901 census just assumed that Winnie was short for Winifred.

Thank you for the 1939 lookup Rootgatherer. As you say, it would be a huge coincidence if she had the same birthday. Wonder why she was called Winifred. Perhaps she had trouble pronouncing her name as a child and it stuck?

Andy

First name(s) WILLIAM E
Last name BATE
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1887
Age 73
Death quarter 3
Death year 1960
District Pontypridd
County Glamorganshire
Volume 8B
Page 447
Country Wales
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, Wales
(c) brightsolid online publishing ltd

Oh! Well done Andrew, I think you may have cracked it or it's a huge coincidence that Gwenllian has the same birthday as Winifred.

On the image the surname is Bate

1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION
Bale Household (2 People)
5 Glynmarch Street , Gelligaer U.D., Glamorganshire, Wales

Gwendhan Bale <<<<<<<<Gwenllian Bate on image.
DOB 14 Jan 1887
SEX Female
OCCUPATION Housewife
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 117
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 2

William E Bale
DOB 13 Mar 1887
SEX Male
OCCUPATION Electric Linesman
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 117
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 1
Ref: RG101/7327F/011/16 Letter Code:
© Findmypast Ltd

This is the birth and death for the lady who died in Essex.


Winifred V Chrestien
1887–1972
Birth 14 JAN 1887 • Kashmir, North West Frontier Pakistan, Pakistan
Death JUN 1972 • Epping, Essex, England

she married


Robert N Chréstien
1895–1981
Birth ABT 1895
Death MAR 1981 • Bishop Stortford, Hertfordshire, England


who worked in Pakistan.

A lot of speculation here, but follows on from the birth I posted earlier. Gwenillian correct age and right place.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1906 (>99%)
Bate William Edward Merthyr Tydfil 11a 1324
Edwards Gwenllian Merthyr T 11a 1324


Name: Gwenllian Bate
Age in 1911: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Deri, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil Parish: Gelligaer
Search Photos: Search for 'Gelligaer' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: 6 Chapel Street Deri Via Cardiff
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 4
Estimated Marriage Year: 1907
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Registration District Number: 590
Sub-registration district: Gelligaer
ED, institution, or vessel: 09
Household schedule number: 38
Piece: 32410
Household Members:
Name Age
William Edward Bate 24
Gwenllian Bate 24

No children I can see.


Possible death

Name: Gwenllian Bate
Death Age: 77
Birth Date: abt 1887
Registration Date: Jun 1964
Registration district: east Glamorgan
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 217

Can anyone find 1939 reg for them?

Andy

What is the Maiden name of Mary?...

(from past 'Threads' you can't always rely on Birthdates, School Admissions)

Chris :)

Birth
EDWARDS, WYNDHAM REES (JONES)
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 613

(his Treobert School Admission (Born 6/2/91) has Jno. Edwards 145, Robert St.)

(his 1906 Marriage, Father David (Deceased)

(Address for Winifred/ David, same School, 135 Robert St.)


Edits (if below was another they had earlier?)

Birth
EDWARDS, WINIFRED (JONES)
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 350


Death
EDWARDS, WINIFRED (0)
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 224


Burial
County Glamorgan
Place Llanwonno
Church name St Gwynno
Register type Parish Register
Burial date 03 Nov 1883
Person age 8d
Burial person forename Winifred
Burial person surname EDWARDS
Burial person abode Blaenllechau

https://www.freereg.org.uk/

If it were my search, I would be inclined to investigate the 1920 death posted by Catherine.

Is it possible that Winifred was a 'pet' name?

EDWARDS Gwenllian Merthyr T. 11a 451


EDWARDS, GWENLLIAN JONES Order
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 481


Andy

EDWARDS, WINIFRED mms JONES
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 346

This is the only Winifred Edwards born anywhere in England / Wales in first qr 1887 - and Mary Edward's ms was Jones.

Is it possible this is your Winifred, even though the censuses say she was born in Wales ??

I found her exact date of birth on the school record and the census records show the year as 1887. Her father's name and address are correct on the record.

Annie

Do you have the right birth date as not seeing a birth for her in mar qtr 1887

I have to do that too, I have a hungry husband! Thanks for your help.

Annie

Sorry, I have to go and get dinner ready now.
Good luck.

No, we don't remember any children. My mother's memory is excellent - at ninety-two! - and she remembers Winnie and her husband (but doesn't remember his name) and can't recall them having any children. I remember going to the house but only Auntie Winnie was there, Uncle ? was always in work. Thank you all for trying.

there are other possible marriages, apart form the two you mention, in Glamorgan, but she could have married anywhere?

This one is Glamorgan:-

Marriages Jun 1911 (>99%)
EDWARDS Winifred Bridgend 11a 1511
GRIFFITHS Edith B Bridgend 11a 1511
Hancock Henry Bridgend 11a 1511
Hawkins Harvey A Bridgend 11a 1511

The district Bridgend is in the county of Glamorgan

Do you remember your parents mentioning any children that Winifred had.